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This user believes in keeping talk page conversations in one place. If you leave a comment here, expect a reply on this page. Blah!!
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Gral and Shran call a truce

Welcome!

Welcome to Memory Alpha, Bp/Archive1! I've noticed that you've already made some contributions to our database – thank you! We all hope that you'll enjoy our activities here and decide to join our community.

If you'd like to learn more about working with the nuts and bolts of Memory Alpha, I have a few links that you might want to check out:

One other suggestion: if you're going to make comments on talk pages or make other sorts of comments, please be sure to sign them with four tildes (~~~~) to paste in your user name and the date/time of the comment.

If you have any questions, please feel free to post them in our Ten Forward community page. Thanks, and once again, welcome to Memory Alpha! -- Captain M.K.B. 22:27, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

captains and archivistsEdit

Hi, Bp. I noticed that you left several notes like "bah" or "you're the captain" in summary fields since i pointed out the Memory Alpha has lots of articles about comics and that a wiki thrives on keeping articles, no matter how basic or expandable they are. Wikis love incomplete articles -- they give new archivists a chance to expand on the work of established archivists, or sometimes they give more established archivists the chance to expand on the work of a new archivists. Whichever way, it encourages collaboration, which is one of our founding concepts.

I'm not a "captain" of authority here, its just a nickname i picked up in school days. Please don't feel that i'm trying to order you around.

I just got a bad vibe from your comments -- i hope you weren't trying to express that there was something wrong with me trying to rehabilitate that article. I'd welcome anyone else's input. -- Captain M.K.B. 22:27, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

No bad vibes intended. Just saying you've been here for a while and I'm relatively new, so I just accept your opinion and take back my nomination for deletion. Yer the captain, was supposed to be fun not sarcastic. --Bp 22:49, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Cool! I'm all about fun too, but others have accused me of being "high and mighty" because of the title usually given to me. I'm never both at the same time!

Consider my comment an invitation that you check out the comics articles in general. I appreciate that others are considering expanding some that i've started on, i mean what i said above, sometimes those articles feel neglected and i really do like the input if it regards a positive expansion of existing material! -- Captain M.K.B. 22:55, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Bp TOS rulesEdit

You know, if you don't like TOS, and or TNG you don't really like Star Trek. Enterprise proved if you took off the Star Trek title you lose the Star Trek crowd. All name recognition. The guy in charge of DS9 had no interest in Gene's vision, the same holds true for the last movies. Technically even ST5 and 6, although I do enjoy them. So if you don't like TOS and TNG, then you like a show that just called itself Star Trek and used it's terminology. That be my 2 cents (This is sort of a reply to your statement in votes for deletion) --TOSrules 02:59, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Welcome to MA

Of course you are wrong, that post TNG series weren't Star Trek. Many things become more than they were designed to be. It's still Star Trek, just refined.
--Bp 04:33, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Gene would never have written that kind of stuff. Star Trek was hijacked starting with DS9.TNG still had his spirit, even after he passed, although you could see some of the bull beginning to creep into the stories. ST began dieing the day Gene did. If you can't bring yourself to love the true vision, then all you love is a show that calls itself Star Trek for ratings. How long would it have lasted with out those 2 words and the terminology? Do you know what 13 episode series was credited as "From the people who brought you Star Trek Voyager"? --TOSrules 05:08, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
No, but I know what 35 episode show that has just been picked up for a third season and has the highest sci-fi ratings was created by the people who brought you DS9 and VOY.... Battlestar Galactica. Hmm, no "Star Trek" in the title. It seems that people do like realistic science fiction as opposed to fantasy voyages to the beyond, where no one adventure has any impact on the next. That's the best part of DS9... it was much more believable. consequences. deep characters. politics. but still the fun of star trek. an evolution. IMHO. (This is User:Bp but Im logged in testing DYKBot) --DYKBot 05:35, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Maybe I am getting to old, but I don't see why people like the new BSG (Although it is a show with an old following [Name rec again]). I also fail to see how a show where people are always at each others throat is true to life. Starbuck is a stereotype of a strong woman, as where Tasha was both strong and nice, unless you have the super feminist type. They missed all the nicer features of the original Starbuck because they were afraid people wouldn't like a female Starbuck. --TOSrules 06:03, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
It's true to life beacuse it's how someone in that situation would most likely act. Cylon agents look like humans, so everyone is suspicios. The species is on the verge of destruction, yet everyone only thinks of themselves. There's no bogus humanism, people act like real people, not Gene's completly unrealistic idealized version. Yes, Star Trek in general is more "fun" and "neato", and those are nice too. I wouldn't spend so much time here if I didn't like it. Anyway, watch Ressurection Ship parts I & II, and tell me one thing that mankind has done that's any better. Ok, maybe not that good, but really good. --Bp 06:34, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
BTW, what 13 ep series where you talking about? --Bp 06:39, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Shran is right we shouldn't debate this here, but the series I was talking about was Legend with Richard Dean Anderson. --TOSrules 06:50, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


End this conversation now, please. Talk pages are not to be used for discussions unrelated to the project – that being the encyclopedia. Other people are entitled to their opinions; you two will have to accept this and move along. Thank you. --From Andoria with Love 17:17, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Your first summary Edit

Hey, thanks for writing your first episode summary! Just remember not to put information in your opinion in main articles. This kind of information can go in your user page. Thanks! Galaxy001talk 00:31, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

ok. --Bp 00:34, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Bot proposalEdit

Hi Bp. Regarding that proposal, I already commented on the talk page of your bot. I personally think that a bot doing this stuff wouldn't be the best possible solution. On Template talk:Did You Know, Kobi suggested to make use of one of the Mediawiki features, the built-in template {{CURRENTWEEK}}. This template resolves to a number and can even be used in other wikilinks. By using, for example, {{DidYouKnow/{{CURRENTWEEK}}}} as the template link on the main page, we would automatically have a different "Did You Know" template linked each week - without having to do edits, without having to rely on an external piece of software, and with the added bonus of being in control of the composition of each DYK. You can find more about this on Template:DidYouKnow/temp. -- Cid Highwind 08:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Which page to you want to use to discuss your bot? I already put a comment here and on the talk page of your bot, but apparently, other pages are used as well. Please, let's have the discussion in one place only. -- Cid Highwind 09:48, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

At the bot's user talk page, User talk:DYKBot. --Bp 10:18, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Minor editing points Edit

Hi there, Bp. There are a couple of things I'd like to point out to you that would make for fewer revisions of your articles:

  • Deep Space Nine always refers to the series not the space station itself. If you want a reference to the station, use Deep Space 9 (or permutations thereof) instead.
  • When you create a link to an episode for a citation, episode names should be in quotes, but not italicized or bolded, and there should be a space after the colon, i.e. TOS: "The Cage", as opposed to TOS:"The Cage" or other variants.

Thanks! -- Renegade54 19:33, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

ok. --Bp 19:35, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

One other minor editing point to add to Renegade54's:

  • When an episode title follows a sentence as a citation, it's best to put a space before the (). For example, when talking about an event in Cardassians, such as Garak's second appearance on the series. (DS9: "Cardassians)
  • As compared to: Garak's second appearance on the series.(DS9: "Cardassians)

Elsewise, all looks good. -- Sulfur 17:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Ten Forward Edit

Hello, thanks for the notice about the new message. I locked the page because it was target of vandals right again and since the newest kind of vandals does also register an account here, protecting it from anonymous edits was kind of pointless. -- Kobi 18:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

alright. --Bp 19:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


Your messageEdit

Pages mention and are about gold in some parts, I would believe it is trek related, a lot of mention of gold in DS9 to name one of many

Yes, but photos aren't normally accepted for this kind of thing. --Bp 21:02, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, newb's mistake

Re:note about PNA list Edit

Hi Bp. Thanks for the comment on my talk page. I tried the code you gave, but couldn't get it to display the time of the last edit (which, in this case, is important for me, because I can quickly check which pages haven't been edited in the last months). Anyway, I don't know if I used the namespace variable correctly, the first list still shows some categories and templates. Also, at the end of the last list, some items have a different formatting. If you can help, feel free to edit my page directly. -- Cid Highwind 19:22, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I dont know what the problem is with namespace. I think the extension is somehow broken. It looks right in the article code and the forum source code though. namespace=0 is supposed to be the primary namespace. --Bp 20:48, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Although the newest version came out 4 days ago, so maybe the fix isnt installed on MA. --Bp 20:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Re: Forum system question Edit

I left an answer at Benutzer Diskussion:Florian K. — Florian - talk 14:55, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Alright! --Bp 15:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

"delete" template Edit

Hi. If you add {{delete}} to a page, could you please add that page to Memory Alpha:Pages for immediate deletion as well? Otherwise, an admin might not always catch your suggestion "in time" - as, for example, the "Patriotism" article shows, where that template was added for the first time on 24 May. -- Cid Highwind 21:57, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Lists of personnel Edit

For future reference, a while (not sure how long exactly) back it was decided that all lists of species would be at (species name) + s or (in cases where that format isn't applicable) List of (species name). I created List of Kellerun and List of T'Lani out of your work, which was nicely done. Looks like the kind of thing we normally get only from Jorg. ;) --Vedek Dukat Talk | Duty Roster 10:01, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

You can go straight to hell Veddek Dukat! Fucking bastard. Don't ever move my stuff again or else I will infect you with Harvesters!! .... wait, I mean that's fine, thanks. ;) --Bp 03:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Unused imagesEdit

Not sure if you know this, but there is already a default "unused images" pages Special:Unusedimages --05:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I did, but I forgot about it. Anyway, these are images I uploaded and plan to put somewhere, I just don't know where yet. Like the vulcan ship. No idea where that goes. Maybe "unclassified unnamed craft?" --Bp 05:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Studio models ArticleEdit

I really think you've done a very nice job on this article. I notice that you keep adding to it - are you planning to delve back to TOS as well? Once you feel you are nearly done, let me know - I think it is shaping up to become a fine addition as a featured article. Aholland 14:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The article is just compiled background notes from other MA articles. Sometimes Jorg mentions one that I dont have in the list while we chat on IRC. It's not really planned, I just add one when it comes to my attention. Go ahead and add TOS models if you like. The only guideline so far is that the image has to already exist in another article before it can be on the page so that it doesn't violate the "is not an image gallery" policy. There are really great in-depth articles about this stuff at Ex Astris Scientia, which is good and bad in some ways. --Bp 02:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Learning to Spell Edit

Sulfur! U! Not E!  :) Just teasing. -- Sulfur 02:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I'll write on the chalk board 500x:
Sulfur is spelled with a U.
Sulfur is spelled with a U.
Sulfur is spelled with a U.
Sulfur is spelled with a U.
Sulfur is spelled with a U.
Sulfur is spelled with a U.
Sulfur is spelled with a U.
But I probably still won't remember. --Bp 02:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
He doesn't. On IRC today he had to correct himself, he spelled it with an "E". Trout. --OuroborosCobra 03:29, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Comic BrowserEdit

Nice touch! Thank you. Aholland 00:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Glad I could help. --Bp 20:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Episode Sidebars Needing Fixing Edit

I have gotten through the TNG (and rechecked those I found errors to make sure you hadn't fix them since we talked on IRC). Here are the ones I found still with errors:

Hope all of that helps. I'll look through the other series later tonight or tomorrow. --OuroborosCobra 03:28, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing these out. About The Next Phase picture, I think it's kindof funny. Really shows how rediculous the premise was. --Bp 11:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Just got through TOS. The first season seems to be fine, but the other two are not. With the exception of the first few episodes in the second season, all of the episodes from seasons 2 and 3 have incorrect or missing production numbers. --OuroborosCobra 11:10, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

This is already known. I wrote a note about it on User:DYKBot. All the data about this on MA is questionable so I'll have to get data from somewhere else. --Bp 11:19, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, nevermind on TOS then. On to Voyager. The ones that display properly all seem fine (so far as there are no missing numbers, I am not checking for accuracy). Two episodes had the big error like "Justice" had:

I am saving DS9 for last since on IRC it sounded like you were already looking at that. --OuroborosCobra 11:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

All of the episodes in Enterprise seasons 2, 3, and 4 have missing or incorrect numbers. --OuroborosCobra 11:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

IRC and DYKBot Edit

The IRC channel went down, it is now back up. I am missing the friendly bot :-( --OuroborosCobra 04:23, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

DYKBot and born template Edit

Just in case you wanted to know, the DYKBot does not show the "born template" from IRC. That means all of those actors don't show it in IRC. Hope I am making any sense. --OuroborosCobra 06:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, works now. --Bp 12:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

IRC die? Edit

Did Freenode just die for you? --OuroborosCobra talk 18:05, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

yeah. --Bp 18:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
zelazny.freenode.net is still working fine, try connecting straight to it... Mdh 18:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

My head just exploded reading that. I know nothing on how to use IRC. --OuroborosCobra talk 18:35, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Hyperlinking Edit

I notice that you keep reediting some of my material and filling it with hyper-links (if that's the right word), even in a simple image description. Is this a MA requirement?Capt Christopher Donovan 21:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. The description should be formatted like everything else, with links and using the normal source citation format. IT also needs a licence boilerplate and a category. Look at the wiki source of some of the other images on MA and you will see what I mean. --Bp 01:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


imageparamountEdit

Thanks for your advise. It's just, that I'm kinda used to the old version;-) I'll add some descriptive info to the pic right away. --BlueMars 13:34, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Excellent! --Bp 13:40, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

DYKBot question Edit

Hey, DYKBot is wrong on a question. It says that "Don't trust a man wearing a better suit than your own." is not Ferengi Rules of Acquisition 37, but it is. Please tell DYKBot that it is 37, Shran is starting to get scary. --OuroborosCobra talk 10:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and fix the one about how many Weyoun clones there were, it is only accepting "Eight,8" as the answer. --OuroborosCobra talk 10:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The Eight one is fixed, but the ferengi rule IS actually 47. That page is wrong. Cheater. --Bp 17:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

If you knew that when you programmed DYKBot, why didn't you fix the article? Besides, I'm not the cheater, Shran is. --OuroborosCobra talk 17:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The bot extracted those rules from the page, I didn't manually add each one. Also, you will notice that in June, there was no 37. --Bp 19:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Got another one for you:

Ferengi Grand Nagi: Temporarily the Nagus in 2396, when Zek faked his death

It should be 2369, not 2396. --OuroborosCobra talk 01:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. --Bp 13:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Another one for ya: "What vessel was Ben Sisko the XO during the 2260s". It should of course be 2360s. --OuroborosCobra talk 19:43, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Defiant & Enterprise Assignment PatchEdit

Hey Bp, I saw your edit of the USS Defiant and USS Enterprise patch. Looks great with the white background, however...the gold background made it match up with the other TOS assignment patches. I was wondering if you could do the same edit for the USS Exeter Patch and the USS Constellation patch.

images removed

This would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for hearing me out. --AC84 05:59, 23 September 2006.

The USS Defiant and USS Enterprise patches were made by Shisma from MA/de (i just uploaded them here) and they actually have a transparent background, but IE doesn't support transparency, so they look white for those unfortunate people who use IE. Anyway, I'll look into making them all match at least. Hopefully, shisma has made those other patches. --Bp 18:45, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

That sounds great. The USS Enterprise mission patch has just been replace as well today. Now if we can replace those patches for the USS Constellation and the USS Exeter with white backgrounds, we'll be set. PS: Do you think we should add a little more space to the sides of the Exeter's patch? Hit me back soon and thanks again for your trouble. --AC84 06:06, 25 September 2006 (PST)

Who's gonna be the victim? Edit

Who do I have to kill to get a sig like yours?

First you have to register, then you can set the sig in preferences. Then you have to learn to sign your comments by clicking the signiture button in the toolbar. Also, it was a joke. I hate those stupid things. They are annoying and useless. Don't do it. --Bp 10:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
oh, it seems I scared you a bit. sorry :))

ok, i registered. now you tell me how can i get a sig like yours (what templates, what tags, etc.). BlockProofed User 18:05, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

(unrelated to above) Yes. Squirrels ate my phone line, and SBC took forever to fix it. I should return to your regularly scheduled program today or so. Don't enact the "What if AJ died" plan yet. - AJ Halliwell 17:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

ok, how do i get a sig like this BlockProofed User 18:21, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Christie's auction statistics Edit

Great job with the auction statistics for 40 Years of Star Trek: The Collection. Where did you get the information? In particular, I am curious why Lot 521 was not sold. --Shawn81 11:10, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. The estimates are from the online catalogue, and the result sale prices are from the christies auction results page [1]. Ther rest is calculated from those numbers. Lot 521 is not in the results list, which means it wasn't sold. ("Lots which did not sell are not shown.") I'm not sure why it wasnt sold, except maybe that unused stickers didn't seem that intersting to anyone. maybe? It's just a guess. :) --Bp 17:47, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
According to Jorg on IRC, they didnt give an explaination they just made an announcement that Lot 521 would not be sold. There wasn't any bidding they just skipped it. We are thinking that maybe the warehouse guys got drunk and decided to put the stickers on doors around the warehouse, so now there is a droid maintenence room at the christies warehouse. :) --Bp 17:56, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Haha, good theory, you may just be right! But it definitely wasn't due to lack of interest. Several people would have bid on them, guaranteed. By the way, do you know what's up with the buyer's premium? It was supposed to be 20% (I know because I registered for the auction, but it turns out they're prejudiced against Macs so I couldn't bid online, plus everything was too expensive!), and for most items it was indeed 20%, but somewhere between $120,000 and $240,000 is starts to drop, going through 18.667% (Lot 1000, $284,800 for $240,000) and 18.154% (Lot 983, $307,200 for $260,000) and finally reaching 15.2% for Lot 712 ($576,000 for $500,000). Apparently there's some sort of sliding scale that goes into effect, but I don't recall reading about it when I registered, nor can I seem to figure out how it works. Any ideas? --Shawn81 22:53, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I was talking to Jorg about this, and he mentioned a line from the back of the catalogue that I have now added to the article: "The buyer's premium was 20% of the hammer price on each lot up to and including $200,000 plus 12% of any amount in excess of $200,000." --Bp 00:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Excellent, that works perfectly. Thanks for clearing that up. --Shawn81 01:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Remember Me Edit

Just out of curiosity, what specifically is your beef with TNG: "Remember Me"? I rather liked the episode, especially since it contains one of my favorite quotes in all of Star Trek: "The universe is a spheroid region, 705 meters in diameter." --Shawn81 06:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that if I anser you Shran will stomp his boot on my face like he did before. See #Bp TOS rules above. Also, I dont remember at the moment. --Bp 08:42, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I see. I'll just email you then. --Shawn81 01:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Tree script Edit

Nice job on the script, I like it! A question/suggestion... how difficult would it be to code it so that the (show all | hide all) at the top was replaced by a toggle that reads (show all) initially, but changes to (hide all) if "show all" is in effect, and back to (show all) if the (hide all) is clicked? -- Renegade54 03:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Well, there would be three possible states: all hidden, some visible, all visible. Because the script allows the sub-trees of sub-trees to be shown/hidden independently, there is a possibility that a pane that is "shown" is actually hidden because it's parent is hidden. So, we can't just keep a count of the "shown" panes. Also, currently the shown/hidden state of each pane is stored in the className attribute of its <ul> element, and there is no way, without stepping through the tree every time, to know the overall state of the tree. Anyway, I decided that it would be unnecessarily complex to do that, and just went with the much more simple, show all - hide all instead, where the state of the tree is irrelevant. Summary: yes, but I'm not sure it's worth the trouble, The script is very lightweight now, and I'd rather keep it that way. Unless maybe you or someone else has an idea for a simple method that I haven't thought of. Which is very possible. I am working on making it a little more versatile so that it can be used for other trees as well (get rid of hard-coded label "appearances", for one) --Bp 03:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I've stumbled on a minor (but annoying) side-effect of using the tree script. The best way to explain it is to use an example, like Joseph Sisko. When you have a link to a bookmark on a page using the script, when you click on the link, at first you go to the bookmark, but once the page finishes loading (i.e. the script finishes loading, executing, and reformatting the page), you jump from the bookmark in the middle of the page down to the bottom of the page, losing the target of the link. I'm not sure that there's anything that can be done about it, though. -- Renegade54 20:59, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see what you mean. I believe that is fixable. I'll begin work immediately! (more or less) --Bp 22:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Fixed. Although it's a little strange on a page like that where there are so many that is a small but noticable lag and it appears to jump around a bit before landing in the correct spot. --Bp 23:01, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the fix (even though you broke Firefox! hehe). I have a suggestion for a change to the tree script. I could go in and make the change myself, but I wanted to bounce it off you first, since it's your baby. Anyway, I'd like to propose changing var smallTreeCount = 1; from var smallTreeCount = 8;. The reason for this is that on a page with numerous invocations of the script, like DS9 recurring character appearances, it looks odd to have some of the trees expanded and some collapsed when you first view the page. If the script is in use on the page, they should all be collapsed for uniformity, no matter the number of leaves in the tree. I think I understand what you were trying to accomplish by setting smallTreeCount to 8, but if you think through it logically, on pages where there are multiple instances of the script, it looks uneven; on pages where there is only one instance, if there are fewer than 8 lines, then the script buys you nothing (it starts out expanded, and you can collapse it if you want, but why bother if, say, there are only 2 leaves? The script shouldn't have been used there to begin with); if there is one instance with more than 8 lines, the script works normally. In my mind, what you're attempting to do is enforce a policy of "don't use the tree script on lists with fewer than 8 items", or some such... a noble goal, but it's probably best just to write the policy down, and make changes if we come across violations. Thoughts? -- Renegade54 14:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I added the line var smallTreeCount = 1; to my monobook.js, and so that's how it's working for me now, and I like the results. If you haven't already, try it yourself to see what I mean. -- Renegade54 14:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I might(not sure yet) think that all the appearances lists should probably use the class, to make them uniform. Even if there are only a few items. The orginal consideration was the amount of space taken up by the large trees, and the small ones don't really offend that way, so I thought they could just be open at the start. You are right that it looks weird on pages with many trees. There may be another way to handle this. Perhaps class "appear-closed" to tell it to ignore smallTreeCount, for use on those pages, or just tell it to always close on pages with more than one. Comments? --Bp 14:45, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Sure, that would work... a way to tell the script to ignore that variable in a specific instance. I had thought of that, but figured that would be more difficult and more work than just making a global change to smallTreeCount. :) -- Renegade54 17:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Using a different CSS class would defeat the purpose of "making them uniform" in the first place, so please, don't... You could also redefine the logic of "smallTreeCount" somewhat. If the value is now for each subtree recursively (leading to the result described above), it should perhaps just be used for the top-level tree instead, leading to either a completely shown or completely hidden tree - now what I mean, or am I making no sense at the moment? ;) -- Cid Highwind 20:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Not really, except the part about not using a different class for the lists we want closed, in the way i suggested. I realize now that would be a bad idea, in case someone styles the lists via their user:/monobook.css. But I think there does need to be a way to signal the script to ignore smallTreeCount for certain pages. Since wiki wont let you put <script></script> in templates to set a variable, we need to put some invisible marker in the document, using a template or something, that tells it to do that. I'm thinking now something like <div class="appear-allclosed"></div> so the script can look for this div and ignore smallTreeCount if it exists. It would never actually be defined in the CSS, or used like a normal style, just as a marker on those pages. Do you understand me? --Bp 23:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, it'd be like passing a parameter to the script, and based on the parameter, you would change the default behavior of the script. -- Renegade54 02:24, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps we're talking about different things, then. What, exactly, would be a situation where you need to have "smallTreeCount" ignored? In any case, I think that a fake div class isn't better than the first suggestion (and might actually be worse). If a tree is supposed to be "shown" always, why add any div class in the first place? -- Cid Highwind 11:16, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, that was my original point in my longer post up above. If the tree is always shown, we shouldn't need the class... but Bp replied that all of the lists should have the class for the sake of uniformity. I'm all for uniformity, but I don't know that it applies in this case. -- Renegade54 13:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
A recap
  • On pages like DS9 recurring character appearances, it looks weird to have some open and some closed. Renegade54 suggested we make smallTreeCount = 1 so that all trees were closed acress the site.
  • I replied that there is a reason for smallTreeCount. The original reason for having the script or the scrollbox was that these lists took up too much space. The small lists do not offend, so a threshold was set where the lists would be open by default, and the user wouldn't have to do anything to see them.
  • Ignoring the part about special class trees, it was a bad idea.
  • We need to signal the script to close all trees on pages like DS9 recurring character appearances and the wiki software wont allow us to use <script>closeAll = 1;</script>, I propose using the invisible <div class="appear-closeall"></div> in the document at the top, placed there by a template, as the signal. The script can easily pick it out while it searches through the divs for class="appear".
About not using the script for small appearances trees
  • It doesn't solve the weird looking problem on DS9 recurring character appearances.
  • It doesn't allow the user to pick how small the trees he wants to hide/show are, using smallTreeCount in his User:/monoboook.js. It makes the author of every page pick how small "small enough" is, and ignores the user setting.
In summary
  • All the appearances lists should use the class, and the site default smallTreeCount should be set at some reasonable space-vs-interaction value, like 8.
  • We need a signal for pages that are all lists, and <div class="appear-closeall"></div> is the best idea we have at the moment, because it is really easy to implement, given the script is already looking through the divs of the document, it is invisible, and it can be easily placed in a template for easy use while still keeping the article source tidy.

--Bp 14:29, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

OK. So we want all occurences of "class=appear" on a page to behave the same - that is, if there is one list that would start "shown" and one that would start "hidden", both become hidden by default? The best solution for that, in my opinion, would be to have the script check for that and enforce it, not to have another div or template that needs to be added manually. Pseudocode:
hasShownLists=false    //HSL
forceHiddenLists=false //FHL
DivIteration:
 - iterate through all div elements
 - if div is found and "shown", set hasShownList=true
 - if div is found and "hidden", set forceHiddenLists=true
 - if, at any point, HSL&&FHL==true, repeat iteration, this time setting ALL lists to "hidden"
For bonus points, add a variable "uniformListStyle=true" that can be set to false in a user .js to avoid this logic. :) -- Cid Highwind 20:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, Bp. How did you get the appearances lists to be interactive? Is there some css code I can add to the X-Files Wiki style sheet in order to make the lists over there also interactive? It would be really helpful. --Defiant 17:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
The code is at User:Bp/interactive tree script. Under "Source", the CSS portion goes into Mediawiki:Common.css, and the JS portion goes into Mediawiki:Monobook.js. Link to that page for attribution. Like everything else here it's CC-2.5-by-nc. --Bp 19:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I just didn't understand why the css was not having an effect when added to my user monobook page. How's this for attribution? --Defiant 20:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

TquoteEdit

I was under the impression that the quotes sections already had a standard format. Of course, the Tquote stuff might make that a touch easier (hard to say really), but the quotes should be at least in quotes too, in the same style as now. Also, all attributed people should be bolded, even if their names are linked. Just a couple of notes thus far on it all... -- Sulfur 11:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

yo. Good point about the bolded names. About the other stuff, the way the quotes are formatted now by abusing <dd> is not a good idea. I think it's better to use CSS for this. Probably the same for background notes as well, but that is another matter. I'm not sure that every line needs quote marks if we use something like the left-side gray bar that marks the whole thing as special, in this case a quote. I know the bar doesn't look right in IE or FF yet, only in Opera. I think the lines sent to the template should be without quotes, whatever we decide it can all be done in the template or CSS. Perhaps the template will just add them, perhaps we can just put some big quote marks on left side of the gray bar, perhaps it can just stay the way it is. I'm not sure what I think is better for that yet. Also, I was planning to move "Tquote" to "Template:quote" after I finished all my little ideas and posted a forum thread about this to get comments. There is still some stuff in the works. I've written a little script that highlights the name of the speaker in the attribution line when the user mouses over a line and some other stuff.
About the quotes sections already having a format, yeah i guess thats true, but it's a fairly poor way to do it with the <dd> without <dt> and <br>s and all that. imo. Also, I want bots (especially mine) to be able to parse the information, which using the class and title attributes this way, is very easy. comments appreciated. --Bp 11:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Yah, I agree that the current format isn't the best "behind the scenes", but it is the best looking of the bunch thus far. I do agree that your template does have a lot of potential benefit, I just wanted to bring up comments while you're working on it, so that things can at least be taken into account along the way. I agree that the lines going to the template/whatnot shouldn't have the " markers, and that those should be added in later. Especially since half the people adding quotes haven't figured out how to actually add that simple punctuation. I just wish that we could easy auto-bold the attributions properly, but I think that's way too difficult to manage properly. alas. -- Sulfur 12:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

If the names were in links, it would be possible to bold them automatically, but not in plain text. Well, it might be, but harder and more likely to screw up and bold something that shouldn't be bolded. --Bp 12:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

IMDb-link Edit

OK, I give... I don't see anything wrong with the template. Try out template:IMDb-test, which is what IMDb-link was before the revert. The only thing I can think of is that when a template like this is changed (one that affects numerous pages), it takes a while for the server to propagate the changes to every page, so there's a lag time. You may have been seeing a page that hadn't been updated by the server yet. -- Renegade54 21:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that you're linking everything to titles. Paramount Pictures is a studio, not a title. Nana Visitor is a name, not a title. The link to Visitor's page should be http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000684/, but the template kept changing it to "http://www.imdb.com/title/nm0000684/". If you can fix that, you've fixed the template. :) --From Andoria with Love 21:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Renegade is right, the software hasn't changed them all yet. If you minor edit the page, it will force it to be updated. --Bp 21:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

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