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Talk:Sidebar government

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Image size Edit

The template currently uses the standard Template:Sidebar image. In regards to logos though, it looks hideous to have them at 292px - try it on governments that have very tall logos, such as Klingon Empire or Bajoran Provisional Government! They currently are on 150px. Perhaps the template should do the same? Logos don't look bad at all centered on blank space, unlike say, screenshots.

Thoughts? – Cleanse 05:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

You can check out the size of it over on a version of my user page. --OuroborosCobra talk 05:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I changed it to 150px for now.– Cleanse 10:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

=Edit

I'm trying to expand the template to replace "Leader" with "Head of State" and "Head of Government," to replace "Ruling Body" with "Legislature," and to include "Judiciary." Every time I do that, though, the entries I add do not show up in the actual templates. What's wrong? -- Sci 18:07 29 JUNE 2008 UTC

I haven't been in a few days, but I don't see any edits by you to the articles themselves (I only checked a few though, so forgive me if you did). You'll have to manually add the new parameters to the article page (I'd recommend simply copying the new template below the old one and transferring the old entries). If you're asking about the example on this page, yeah, it kind of lags for some technical reason.
Having said that, I don't agree entirely with the changes you made. Please don't take this as criticism or some kind of claim of ownership to the template. ;-) I'm just trying to make sure it's as flexible enough to capture all canon "at a glance" info we know about these interstellar nations while still being accurate to canon. Point for point:
  • I like the addition of judiciary. We only know it for the UFP and I think the Cardassian Union, but it is an good addition nonetheless.
  • IMO, neither Federation credit nor Federation members should be capitalized because they aren't proper nouns. It's inconvenient to pipe these anyway.
  • Legislature seems to work well for the Federation Council, Klingon High Council and Romulan Senate, but I wonder if it really fits the Cardassian Union well. It's ruled by three bodies: military, intelligence, and civilian. We don't really know enough about who does what to really say that they all actually create laws. We know they all "rule" in some manner but mapping them to a separation of powers is problematic. I used the vaguer term "Ruling Body" to avoid this kind of technicality. But really, if it's only Cardassian Union which is the problem, I don't mind this change so much.
  • Head of Government/ Head of State - I avoided putting these as parameters because as far as I'm aware, the only time this distinction was alluded to was in "Rightful Heir", where it was established that Emperor Kahless would be a figurehead compared to the real power being exercised by the Chancellor (ie. making the Klingon Empire a constitutional monarchy of sorts). For the rest of Trek's governments, we're just shown a "Leader", who while quite likely being Head of Government, may also be Head of State. eg. the Praetor is clearly Head of Government of the Romulan Empire, but is he also Head of State? (or is there still a ceremonial emperor to justify the name Romulan Star Empire?) Also, you've listed the Federation President as only Head of State. Yet, the position seems to be based upon the US President, who is both Head of Government and Head of State. I think it's speculation to draw such a line if not in canon, and as such better to be vague. We only really know that the President, Praetor, First Minister etc. are "leaders" of their nations, so why not leave it at that unless we have evidence to the contrary (in which case we can note it like it was on Klingon Empire)?
Cleanse 06:16, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

See, if anything, I think that the division works better for the Cardassian Union than just "ruling body." The Detapa Council is clearly the Cardassian legislature; the question is not, "Is it a legislature?" The question is, "Does the legislature have any power?" Well, we know from DS9 that before the civilian coup, the Central Command was basically in charge, even though the Detapa Council was still around -- a toothless legislature, but a legislature nonetheless. Of course, trying to use the infobox for the Cardassian Union is difficault anyway because it went through at least three governments during DS9's time -- the Detapa Council/Central Command/Obsidian Order triad, Detapa Council rule, and the Dukhat/Dominion dictatorship.

As for the Federation President -- yeah, he's both head of state and government, it would seem. I wanted to avoid redundancy in the infobox, which is why I only listed "head of state." I think I'll play around with both, though. But the head of state/government division also works for the Romulans -- Q referred to the existence of a Romulan Empress in "The Q and the Gray." -- Sci 17:04 30 JUNE 2008 UTC

I still kinda disagree with your conception of the Cardassian Union. I see the Guard's and Obsidian Order's role as perfectly de jure as well as de facto and that just because the Detapa Council sucks at keeping an eye on them, doesn't mean they're not still (generally) authorised do what they do. But seeing it's a bit arbitrary anyway with three distinct governments being seen, I'll leave it be. That one's never going to summarise everything anyhow.
In any case, I added a name parameter, because we need a caption for the top image for Romulan Empire's comparison of logos and UFP's display of the logo and flag of the Federation to work. It looks a bit better too I think. Should have added it in the first place ;-) I think we have a pretty good-looking template now. It's just a pity it'll be only ever on a dozen or so pages (even if they're pretty important ones). If you've got any thoughts about the image display btw, I'd appreciate some input (see above discussion). 150px works fine on most pages, but is a bit wimpy on governments represented by flags and/or wide logos, such as UFP,Romulan Empire and United States of America. – Cleanse 10:34, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

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