Altern is approximately equal to a Starfleet lieutenant commander.
- Subaltern Lorot
...as a Subaltern was never mentioned as a military rank, and I've read several pages that seem to imply it's a political position (although I'm pretty sure they're speculation). Is an Altern a real political position in any world governments? Either way ther "approximately equal to..." is surely speculation here. - AJHalliwell 01:35, 1 Sep 2005 (UTC)
- You're right A.J., I was mistaken about the title of "subaltern." I misread the subaltern page and thought it said it was equal to an infantry captain. I re-read the page and read the wikipedia page, and realize that "subaltern" is an old English term for "subordinate." And we all know their is no "ordinate" position. You were right to remove the ranks, and I will change the page accordingly. Also, thanks for fixing the image formatting, and for the Commander/Lieutenant disclaimers.--Tim Thomason 03:01, 1 Sep 2005 (UTC)
np, thanks for creating the page. I figured if no one'd created it, I'd of done something about it this weekend. I hope sometime someone creates images of the Vulcan rank pips like the Starfleet ones, although T'Pols is the only one thats really clear... - AJHalliwell 03:05, 1 Sep 2005 (UTC)
I do believe that it should imply an altern position existing, but it should be re-labeled as a possible rank. Or other. Maevok 03:53, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
"Is the Administrator really a rank?"Edit
Is the Administrator really a rank? If so, we should probably add Federation President to Starfleet ranks, as their basically the same thing for their respective governments. Instead I say kick admin off. - AJHalliwell 21:19, 18 Sep 2005 (UTC)
- When I first put Administrator on the page, I did so because 1) I couldn't find any evidence of Vulcan flag officers and 2) I was under the impression that the Administrator was "Administrator of the High Command" and would be similar to Commander-in-chief, Starfleet. I know Jaresh-Inyo described himself as a C-in-C in "Homefront", but V'Las seemed more of a military rather than civilian leader. We know that the High Command had taken over Vulcan, so I assumed that the leader of the Vulcan people was a military commander. If you want to move it, I won't object, it seems alright to me though.--Tim Thomason 16:40, 1 Oct 2005 (UTC)
- Just a theory, and probably little support for it, but I think that administrator is an abstract rank similar to admiral (flag officer) and there is likely different grades with the C-in-C being on top, as with a fleet admiral in starfleet. Federation 22:37, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
There was a reference to a "Fleet Commander", who was in charge of the fleet during the battle of Andoria. Not to speculate, but this would seem to be their equivalent to Fleet Captain/Fleet Admiral, no? --Alan del Beccio 16:50, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
New theory re: vulcan ranksEdit
I noticed that this page makes reference to commander and lieutenant as separate ranks in the Vulcan hierarchy but notes that no one has been seen with these ranks. Furthermore, if you read the page on the Romulan rank system that parallels the Vulcan's their doesn't seem to be any equivalent.
It has been noted in many sources that Captain is a position as well as a rank. For instance, anyone commanding the ship at a given time is referred to acting captain even if captain isn't his or her permanent rank.
From these, I put forward the idea that Commander and Captain are the same rank in the Vulcan hierarchy. The only difference is that a commander assigned a starship is called captain as per naval tradition.
Likewise, I believe that Major and Lieutenant are the same rank. Federation 21:43, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with you that "commander" equaling "captain" is a distinct possibility -- one i'd be willing to add to the article and research further...
- I don't think there is as likely an explanation for "major" equaling "lieutenant" -- in any system. This one we could probably leave out. -- Captain M.K.B. 21:48, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
- If you look at the chart at the bottom, Major is listed as the military equivalent to the naval rank of lieutenant. Federation 22:34, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think we can safely ignore the implied ranks of Commander and Lieutenant. There would be no reason to put sub- before the ranks if they didn't exist. We need to include these ranks, not as pure canon, but as highly likely.
Also, we really can't make that "as per naval tradition" assumption, because that is an earth custom, we called them Captain because people in charge of ship's are captains. It would be reasonable for Subcommanders to be referred to as Commander when in command, because that would be what Commander represented to the Vulcans (as Commander may be represented by Captain for us). Maevok 03:51, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Proposed Vulcan Rank StructureEdit
The following summarizes my current belief of how Vulcan ranks work and compare with starfleet ranks. If you agree, you can update the article to reflect this:
Vulcan rank = Starfleet Rank
Administrator = C-in-C/President
Fleet Commander = Admiral
Commander = Captain
Subcommander = Commander
Major = Lt. Cmdr
Sublieutenant = Lieutenant
Federation 02:29, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that this would be more plausible:
Administrator = Fleet Admiral
Fleet Commander = Vice/Rear/ Admiral (perhaps Commodore?)
Captain = Captain
Commander = 3.5
Subcommander = Commander
Major = Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant = Lieutenant
Sublieutenant = Ensign
Maevok 03:58, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
It seems to me that she must have been since Mestral asked her for orders when their captain died in the crash near Carbon Creek, but she wears no identifiable insignia that I could see. — Greg (talk) 23:37, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
New Theory Edit
Based on my knowledge of rank structures I propose a new theory for the Vulcan rank structure.
Fleet Commander-Admiral (in the German navy amongst others it just referred to the C-in-C of a fleet who was usually a full admiral but could vary, so it is perhaps more of a position than a rank and presumably there are other ranks to refer to other grades of flag officers).
Captain: Captain 1st Rank (see Russian Navy Ranks)
Commander: Captain 2nd Rank (see Russian Navy Ranks)
Sub-commander: Commander (Starfleet: It is possible that T'pol simply had seniority over Cmdr. Tucker, rather than having a completely different rank)
Sub-lieutenant-Lieutenant Junior Grade (see Royal Navy-US Navy rank comparison)
Subaltern-Ensign (Subaltern existed as a rank in the Women’s Auxiliary Territorial Service in the Second World War, where it was equivalent to OF-1 and OF-2 ranks, but given the existence of Sub-lieutenant is probably referring the OF-1 rank.)