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Does USS Horizon = Horizon from "A Piece of..."? Edit

On revert:

"A Piece of the Action" made it quite clear it was the USS Horizon at Sigma Iota not the ECS. In fact, the ECS did not even exist in the minds of the writers when original episode written, so there is no possible way it could have been. --Alan del Beccio 04:33, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Whatever the writer's original "intent" was 40 years ago is irrelevant. Star Trek has constantly gone back to clarify information not given before. In the episode "A Piece of The Action", there is no mention that the Horizon was a Starfleet ship, its registry number, or any other detail beyond that it lacked subspace communication capability. It was simply called "The Horizon" and nothing more. I made no claim otherwise. But I pointed out the possibility that either one, the ship in the Star Trek Encyclopedia or the ECS Horizon could have made first contact with the Iotians. Let the reader decide for themselves, since either is plausible.--Mike Nobody 05:50, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Considering the reference on this page is about nothing more than this ship visiting and contaminating said planet-- then adding to the bottom of the page that everything the reader just read was "unclear" is a blatant contradiction against everything the reader just read in the aricle! --Alan del Beccio 06:00, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)

The entire "Enterprise" series is unclear how it fits into the timeline of previous Star Trek lore. At face value, a LOT of Enterprise contradicts established canon (40 years of it). But, as with all things Star Trek, you need to take the information with a grain of salt. The USS Horizon does not exist in ANY movie or episode. By Mike Okuda's own admission, the serial number and USS were taken off a model. That's all. Also, in "A Piece of the Action" it is stated that "the Horizon" sent a distress call by conventional radio and not through subspace. It seems unlikely that a ship built AFTER the NX-01 or NX-02 would lack a capability that the older ship possesses.--Mike Nobody 06:25, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Enterprise's place in the timeline is solidified with the appearances of Riker and Troi interacting with the series.

Regarding lack of subspace communications. Subspace did not have the range or speed in the 2160s that it had in the 2260s, and most likely 2360s. Proof of this is the fact that Enterprise had to deploy subspace amplifiers to be able to communicate home as it traveled beyond the range of its radio. Reasonable explanations can be contrived to support this, in the same way it they have been to explain the inconsistencies with the USS Bonaventure.

For example, the Horizon may not have had the same luxury as Enterprise, that is, of having a series of buoys behind it to communicate home with, thus why it took 100 years for the message to get home. The fact that the SS Columbia did not apparently have the same luxury in 2236, 69 years later, was why its' distress call was not discovered for another 18 years.

As far as which Horizon discovered Sigma Iotia II, I've created a list of "pros" and "cons", that either support or contradict canon, that is-- which ship, the USS Horizon versus the ECS Horizon was the first ship to visit the planet...

Supporting factsEdit

USS Horizon

  1. The obvious, references made to the "USS" Horizon in the Star Trek Concordance (a reference dating back to 1976), the Star Trek Encyclopedia and at StarTrek.com.
  2. Taking the Star Trek Encyclopedia reference one step further, Mike Okuda referred to the ship as a Daedalus class, registry NCC-176-- shortly thereafter this model was created to support the claim (as far as class and registry) made by the Encyclopedia. The fact that the model existed as a model in Benjamin Sisko's office, in turn, supports the Encyclopedia claim of the existence of said ship, which is known to have existed prior to 2196.
  3. The intent of the writers 39 years ago did not have the "ECS" Horizon in the mind while writing this episode. All they had in mind was that the Horizon came "from the same outfit as the" USS Enterprise, which would seem to indicated that was a Federation starship. The fact that the "USS" Horizon has nearly 40 years of reputation behind it as the ship, up until the similarly named "ECS" Horizon appeared, completely contradicting the article in front of itself would not be the best way of handling this.

ECS Horizon

  1. An issue of Chicago Mobs of the Twenties was among the literature found in Travis Mayweathers quarters aboard the "ECS" Horizon. The intent of the production staff, as far as the inclusion of this artifact, was most likely a homage than an intent to "change history". Nevertheless, I've included this point to support this vessel. (Comment from our (co-)founder on Flare regarding this notation.)

Contradictions and suppositionsEdit

USS Horizon

  1. Other than the fact that Horizon came "from the same outfit as the" USS Enterprise, the prefix "USS" was never given. The supposition is that "the same outfit" = "USS" Enterprise = "USS" Horizon.

ECS Horizon

  1. The "ECS" Horizon was consistently (and constantly) referenced as being a slow ship-- taking a half a dozen years just to go from point "A" to point "B" in making a cargo run. Although it is feasible that its' warp drive was upgraded over the ten years between its' appearance in "Horizon" and the interference at Sigma Iota, the fact remains (as Kirk said): "Your system is on the outer reaches of the galaxy." Which seems to contradict the previously established facts that the Horizon is a god-awful slow starship.
  2. Unlike the reference to the SS Valiant, which was more or less explained for its extreme distance from Earth after an encountered with a magnetic space storm to explain why it was swept off course. The Horizons visit to "the outer reaches of the galaxy" came across as intentional versus accidental. Why a cargo ship would intentionally venture out so far from its otherwise near-Sol system cargo runs to conduct an exploration mission is difficult to fathom. Additionally, as it was hinted at in "These Are the Voyages...", warp 7 starships were all ready to go by 2161, 6 years before this encounter. Even if the "ECS" Horizon was on it's way to Sigma Iotia when we last saw it in 2153, and from what we know (per "Fight or Flight") of how far the "ECS" Horizon could go in 9 months (that being 2 light years), it could only travel roughly 37 light years by 2167. 37 light years hard seems to me to be "on the outer reaches of the galaxy".
  3. There is no supporting facts that the Earth Cargo Service was integrated into the Federation (or Starfleet) at the time of the founding of the Federation, as they seemed rather adamant to remain a separate entity from other Earth agencies/organizations such as Earth Starfleet. The supposition here is that the Earth Cargo Service is part of the Federation in 2167, and all of its' vessels were incorporated into the fleets of "the same outfit as the" USS Enterprise, rather than remaining independently owned (or, at "leased") by the families running the ships. However, Starfleet vessels (ie "USS") are known to belong to Starfleet at the time (versus "ECS").

Although I understand the point about which Horizon visited the planet, its hard to believe a warp 2 freighter would intentionally visit a planet when an otherwise dedicated Federation starship is more equipped to do the job. To sum it up, its hard to rewrite 30 years of Trek history by the inclusion of a book on a shelf when Okuda has already made a widely accepted conclusion on his own (and model to boot) on the behalf of the original writers.

In response to your variations of this/these articles at "The Horizon/Temp" and "USS Horizon/Temp", I think adding the following to the page (without contradicting its present content) might be an option:

The Horizon was never seen directly on screen, nor was its class or registry identified outside of the Star Trek Encyclopedia. However, a Daedalus-class model, with the name USS Horizon painted on it, was seen in many episodes of Deep Space Nine as a decoration in Benjamin Sisko's office.
Although the dialog from "A Piece of the Action" did not give a clear reference to the Horizon being designated as the "USS Horizon", what evidence is given supports a class of vessel more advanced than the ECS Horizon, a warp 2 freighter that existed 15 years prior to this encounter, whose capabilities and mission seem lack the desire and ability to make it to "the outer reaches of the galaxy", where Sigma Iotia II is said to be located.

Or something to that effect. --Alan del Beccio 21:00, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Wow, okay... so, here's the thing, and I'm speed-typing here, so bear with me. As far as we know, we could be dealing with three different ships: Mayweather's Horizon, the Horizon that made contact with Sigma Iotia, and the Horizon seen in Sisko's office. Now, the thing here is that Mike Okuda, who designed the model seen in Sisko's office, intended that ship to be the one which contacted Sigma Iotia. However, the fact that that particular ship was the same Horizon that made first contact with the Iotians was never established on-screen. HOWEVER, I do believe that, despite not being referenced, background information such as the intentions behind Okada's model are considered here to be canon. For example, we have articles for several alien species from TMP despite the fact they were never referenced (or seen, I believe). We also have articles for Martin Madden and the like even though his scenes were cut from the final print of Nemesis. So, the way I see it, background information, while not firmly established as canon, is considered canon here. And that's all I have to say about that. Maybe. :/ --From Andoria with Love 21:36, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
That said, I think what Alan wrote there at the end is a good way of settling this. You know, the stuff immediately before my comment. Yeah, that. :P --From Andoria with Love 21:37, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)

I just rewatched "Horizon" last night as the book on Travis' bookshelf was called Chicago Gangs (with a subtitle I couldn't quite make out)--so this seems to scratch the previously thought nod-of-the-hat . --Alan del Beccio 12:02, 20 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Reversion Edit

I reverted the edit of Mike Nobody because it removed relevant information. As quoted by Gvsualan above:

"In reponse to your variations of this/these articles at The Horizon/Temp and USS Horizon/Temp, I think adding the following to the page (without contradicting its present content) might be an option..."

Notice the line in bold print. ;) --From Andoria with Love 22:14, 14 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Second background imageEdit

I'm not sure we really need this second image. Since this image appears in the background, and we already have a background image with a more legible name on it, this second image comes across rather superfluous. --Alan 11:05, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

On Screen Appearances Edit

Did this type of ship ever make any on screen appearances? If so, when? In Correct (talk) 04:03, November 5, 2012 (UTC)

As stated in the article, the only "appearance" was of a model of the ship, in various episodes of DS9. 31dot (talk) 10:18, November 5, 2012 (UTC)

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