Talk: Trill/archive

For outdated or stagnant discussions, see Talk:Trill/archive.

The question of Federation membership

2004-05

I have seen no canon information leading to the solid conclusion that the Trill are Federation members. -Dice

Agreed, all we know for certain is Trill sometimes join starfleet, however, so did Nog and the Ferengi are clearly not members. Tyrant 13:50, 21 Jan 2005 (CET)

Curzon Dax was a Federation ambassador to the Klingon Empire in the 23rd century. In order for him to represent the Federation -- he must therefore belong to a race that is a member of the Federation -- the Trill. One reason would be because he would have to have the Federations best interests in mind. The exceptions to this rule, of course, are K'Ehleyr and Worf, whom were both raised by or were part human(s), and therefore raised by the Federation. There is no evidence that Curzon was raised by or part anything other than Trill. --Gvsualan 19:41, 21 Jan 2005 (CET)

Ah, I had forgotten that, nice point, excellent speculation. Tyrant 19:47, 21 Jan 2005 (CET)

To be an ambassador of a political all that is required is citizenship of that group. Curzon may well have been a citizen of the Federation, but that does not mean that his people are – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 160.5.19.22.

Well, on that note. Lacking any clear statement of membership from one of the series, it would seem highly likely that Trill is a member world, but not known and therefore not canon. Tyrant 22:43, 13 Mar 2005 (GMT)

Worf was the federation ambassador to Kronos, which we all know is not a federation planet. This is not evidence enough. I just cannot believe that none of the crew of the ent-d would have heard of a trill if they were federation members - there are only about 150. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jaz (talk • contribs).

Although a case can be made that an ambassador must be culturally from the planet and race he represents, in the spirit of Star Trek's message of social and racial equality I'm not sure there is a strict rule about this. I don't believe there is one human Ambassador who represents humans or the Federation or one Vulcan ambassador who represents all of Vulcan. Sarek was clearly the Vulcan ambassador to the Federation. But as we have now, there are numerous ambassadors from different countries who administer to other countries and territories. I'm not sure that in star trek, race would be a priority to represent a particular culture. Picard is often chosen to mediate disputes based on his diplomatic skills and his stature in Starfleet, not his race.

Therefore, if the ambassador is a well-traveled and capable diplomat, I don't see why there couldn't be a Tellerite Federation ambassador to Trill or a Trill Federation ambassador to Klingon who is later posted somewhere else. I don't think ambassadorships are definitive in scope nor is there a shortage of them. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 164.51.121.170.

Also, while it is true that Worf, member of a non-Federation species, was a Federation ambassador, and that both he and Nog joined Starfleet without being from a member species, it seems unlikely that the Trill are anything but members. Not only do we have Odan and Dax serving as Ambassadors for the Federation but we have seen multiple Trill in Starfleet. That level of integration into Federation politics and security would seem highly unlikely if they weren't members. Nog and Worf were exceptions, the only such exceptions for their species. Bajorans are another example. Even though Bajor was not a Federation member we saw various Bajorans in Starfleet. However, rather than being an argument against Trill membership the fact that it was clearly mentioned that Bajor was being groomed for entry into the UFP seems to indicate that such a widespread integration was really only possible for current or likely members as it would be a policy of the UFP to encourage future members to become involved at all levels. Logan 5 15:33, 15 Jul 2005 (UTC)

There is a good fight to be made on either side, however, we still have no reference and are therefore only guessing. Jaf 02:57, 19 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Note also that the trill scientist working on vortexes was allowed to use the defiant. This points toward till being a member of UFP : i doubt starfleet would lent the Defiant to a foreign power, even a ally.

RE: Gvsualan: Whether this is sufficient or not to say Trill is member world, this is an awful continuity problem. Trill have been known to mankind for one century at least, and closely enough to have one guy working as a Federation ambassador, and yet, nobody aboard the Ent-d knows about them. Are Starfleet officers illiterate? It would have been much better to just give another species name to DS9 Trills. --Rami

Perhaps the solution is a small note under the first paragraph saying something like, "The Trill are most likely members of the Federation for this this and this reason." --Jaf 03:09, 12 Sep 2005 (UTC)

After giving this some thought: In a reality where a non-human is the president of Earth, it would seem that people are judged as individuals and not on race. An individual may be a member of the Federation without their homeworld or the rest of their species being members. And it seems likely that when dealing with individual diplomats and scientists, the Federation would allow certain jobs and freedoms to individuals and not species, based on who they are and not what they are. Therefore, a non-Federation member (individual) might still get to fly a ship or work on peace talks without that saying anything about their politics or the politics of their species. In conclusion I see no reason to conclude that the Trill are members as a whole or that their planet is. (This is not to say that they are not, just that we really can't know at this point) Jaf 03:13, 30 Sep 2005 (UTC)

I really think that "most likely" is a better solution. We've seen too many Trill in Starfleet for me to think otherwise. Despite the egalitarian nature of the Federation it's been established that Starfleet is not nearly so accommodating and that you are either a member species or need special circumstances. And it's hard to think of special circumstances to cover that many Trill. Logan 5 03:30, 30 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Since Beverly Crusher had no prior knowledge about Trills I'm inclined to believe Jaf's point, that Trill haven't (yet) joined the Federation but individuals have applied to Starfleet, like Nog or Worf, on the recommendation of a Starfleet officer above the rank of captain. However, the number of Trills we've seen would suggest that their planet has applied for membership (or will soon). As for Federation Ambassadors, like Curzon Dax, I haven't heard of anything that would preclude someone representing the Federation unless they lacked the skills and qualifications. Dax knew Dr. McCoy in the 23rd century. It's possible, and likely, that McCoy was completely unaware of a Trill's symbiotic nature. Dax may have been an early (or only) Trill to make contact with humans. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mike Nobody (talk • contribs).

A little detail : In DS9 "Trials and Tribble-ations" dax, sisko, o'brien and bashir disguise themselves so they can remain unnoticed in the 23rd century starbase. And dax masks her trills spots - this mayindicates that trill are not usual in starfleet at this time. --Rami

Several novels have suggested that it was little-known thing about them off-world until that time. Also remember, according to a couple of DS9 episodes, less than 1% of Trill are joined. -rob

RE Mike Nobody: Hardly, Emony Dax was judging a gymnastic competition and this was before McCoy had joined Starfleet Medical (or while he was still attending) so was most likely on Earth (and in fact was in the Lives of Dax book, which I know isn't canon but still). Regardless if she was a judge she had probably been well known in the interstellar gymnastics community well before then. My personal theory is that Dax had assumed the Trill on the Ent-D were a different species of Trill (they did afterall, look nothing like other historical Trill, Curzon and Joran both had spots so it's not a "recent mutation" it's more likely that the funny forehead Trill are a sub-species of Trill and so she was just startled.) Also remember that no Starfleet doctor could possibly be trained in every culture's physiology. McCoy barely understood Vulcan physiology and Vulcans were the first species to come into contact with Earth (and had been in such contact over 100 years). Curzon's existence as Federation Ambassador to Qo'Nos (DS9: "You Are Cordially Invited") makes it extremely likely that they are in fact Federation members, joining probably before the mid 24th century (Curzons approximate lifetime). There are over 150 members of the UFP, to count the Trill out when the evidence for them as members thus established far outweighs the evidence against - seems silly. Cory 08 Dec 2005, 1450 EST

2006

After giving this some thought: In a reality where a non-human is the president of Earth, it would seem that people are judged as individuals and not on race. He wasn't the president of earth, he was the president of the federation, whos capital planet was earth. bad argument, it all boils down to cannon has it been said that trill is a member or not? the episode where miles and ezri go to visit her mom i think says that the federation has no influence there but that was the orion sector, however they did use a trill to make contact...ezris mom, i think thats as close as i have seen to a cannon ref.KetracelWhiteJunkie 00:29, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I found a detail that strongly supports Federation membership: in the episode "Dax" it is stated that Klaestron IV has an extradition treaty with the Federation to extradite a Trill criminal.--This user is not Jesus 06:17, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I would consider this enough to move Trill's status back to definite Federation member. Cory 06:55, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclined to think she did so because the Enterprise had a mostly-human crew, so it would be easier for her remain unnoticed as just another crewmember if she appeared human.--69.136.109.189 04:15, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

RE Logan 5: Bajorans are a very poor example to work from: Given that Bajor was occupied by Cardassia for fifty years and a large number of natives fled the planet it's likely that most of the Bajorans we see in Starfleet are second-generation emigrants to Federation planets---hence, citizens. However, this does offer an explanation for why we see so many Trill in Starfleet: many could simply have been born on Federation member-worlds, as it seems that Trill are well-traveled.

RE This user is not Jesus: Jadzia Dax need only be a Federation citizen for them to claim that the extradition treated applies, not everyone on her species' home planet. This only suggests that she is a citizen, not necessarily that the planet Trill is a member-world. 70.29.254.77 13:58, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not so sure that second-generation emigrants would automatically be considered citizens. This is the way citizenship works in the United States, and it is called jus soli (Latin for "right of soil"); there is also jus sanguinis ("right of blood") which is citizenship based on parentage and NOT birthplace. For example, someone born in Austria is not automatically an Austrian citizen; his or her parents must already be Austrian citizens. See Wikipedia for more on jus soli and jus sanguinis. -Etoile 22:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I feel that the Trill are a member of the Federation for several reasons all taken from the TV episodes. 1. The trill have been known to the UFP since before McCoy was a doctor (Jadzia said that her host of the time had a romantic liaison with him and she knew "he would become a doctor because of his hands"). This suggests that the Trill became known to the UFP sometime prior to 2244 and had started to integrate into the Federation community. 2. The majority of Starfleet was (and still is) human. Spock was initially the first Vulcan in Starfleet (something that was later passed to T'Pol) and was originally suppose to be the only non-human on the original 5 year mission. So when Dax went undercover on the USS Enterprise in Trials and Tribble-ations she had to hide her spots. 3. As only 1 out of every 1000 Trill is chosen to be a host, we can assume that this is not covered in Starfleet Medical considering it represents a small proportion of the population (of Trill let alone Starfleet). Medical courses for one species at the moment takes up to five years, imagine the time for 150 species. I would theorize that the course would be structured on most likely encountered species and choose from the following few optional courses. (also crusher referred to the Klingons on treatment when Wolf broke his back suggesting she doesn't know everything about all her crewmates species) 4. Think about the amount of species you would have to know about in Starfleet, I'm sure you couldn't remember all 150 Federation members, their allies, the enemies and anyone you have conducting first contact with, let alone know everything about that species. I don't even know every nation on the planet and there is only 193 UN recognized countries. (Data had encountered 1,754 non-Human races during his tenure with Starfleet. (TNG: "Darmok")) 5. Final piece, when Jadzia is asking the initiate what he would like to do, she suggests Starfleet: if Trill is not a member, he would need a command level Starfleet officer's letter of recommendation (i.e. not her at that time). And as he was an potential host would have little outside contact, Starfleet officers wouldn't give these letters out just to anyone, they would have to know them. So I doubt Jadzia Dax would mention it, unless it was an easy case. And we have seen so many Trill in Stafleet. So in the light of this evidence I would theorise that Trill has been a member since around 2255 - 2285. dlowbridge 04November2006

I'd like to offer another potential possible explanation for discussion (as if there aren't enough already): Trill is not a full Federation member, but is allied to the Federation very closely, in a manner resembling Bajor, or other protectorates. We see several instances of Trill in Starfleet (six, as counted over in Talk:Trill (planet)); however, we also see many instances of Bajorans in Starfleet, despite the fact that we have explicit indication that Bajor is not yet a full-fledged Federation member world, as late as 2375. We also know that the diplomatic relations of the UFP allow for a variety of allied status: we see the Evora seeking protectorate status with the UFP in Insurrection, and we know Bajor and the Klingon Empire's ties to the Federation are quite extensive. It may also be further possible that Trill is perhaps in the process of attaining full membership, and perhaps has been so for an extended period.Ereiid 06:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

2007

RE Jaz: Worf was raised by humans on a Federation world, so he is not entirely comparable to Curzon. If something similar is true of Curzon, I am not aware that it is anywhere stated in canon. However, to my way of thinking, that does still leave the question open.

RE Etoile: In the absence of any indication to the contrary, I would tend to assume that the Federation probably confers citizenship to persons born and raised on Federation worlds. That seems the liberal and open-minded thing to do, and Federation politics in general are modeled after (a liberal Hollywood view of) what US politics might develop into after a couple more centuries. This doesn't make jus soli canon, but it seems the most likely thing. And quite aside from that, he was adopted by human parents, who were presumably Federation citizens; even Israel, a just sanguinis nation if ever there was one, confers citizenship to such adoptees, and has done since antiquity. Note that in the alternate timeline in "Yesterday's Enterprise", Worf fights for the Federation when they are at war with the Klingon empire. He values his Klingon heritage and culture, but his loyalty lies with the Federation. Consequently, I think it unlikely that Worf's status as a Federation ambassador is relevant here, as he is probably a citizen of the Federation.

RE This user is not Jesus: That seems to me like the strongest canon evidence presented in this thread either way. Based on that, I would say that they are likely members, although there is no direct reference to their membership in canon. --Jonadab, 2007 Feb 4

This is off-topic, but Worf wasn't actually in the alternate timeline in "Yesterday's Enterprise". – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.98.252.150.

Trill is in the Kalandra Sector which is near the core of the Federation, the Dominion took the Kalandra System, then attacked from that system Betazed, Andor, Tellar and Vulcan so it must be fairly close to those planets. I've read that Trill had first contact with the Vulcans in the early 21st century which suggests they met before the Vulcans met humans, so they would have been known to the Federation since its inception. It is mentioned in a TNG novel that Trill became a member of the Federation in the early 23rd century, whether the novel is canon or not i don't know but Trill is more than likely part of the Federation. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.115.179.162 .

As noted at the bottom of the page, in Unity they are members of the Federation. Now if only it was mentioned in the show 74.229.215.99 06:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm also in favor of the 'special relationship' theory; becoming a full member of the federation could have required the trill to reveal the existence of the symbionts, which they wanted to keep secret, as per TNG:the host (their own people covet them, imagine if aliens wanted them too!) Also, joined trill might have special privileges in their society, which might violate federation rules against racism, which would bar their complete entry. 70.171.187.183 17:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

RE This user is not Jesus: She doesn't have to be a Federation citizen. The citizenship of the person being extradited isn't necessarily a factor in whether or not the person can be extradited. For instance, Article 3 of the United Kingdom/United States extradition treaty states, Extradition shall not be refused based on the nationality of the person sought. The extradition treaty with Klaestron IV could easily contain a similar clause. Skotos 13:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I have a few ideas on how most people don't know much about the Trill and why they have represented the Federation in the past: 1) They are neutral, but have some ties to the Federation because the Vulcans had made contact with them before the founding of the Federation (kind of like Switzerland is today), 2) Their planet is far enough outside of the Federation or they restrict tourists/don’t promote their planet (Sisko had not even been to Trill until Jadzia had to be taken there in 2371), 3) They are renowned diplomats, so the Federation might seek their assistance, 4) In DS9 most of the characters did not know much, if anything, about the Trill (physiologically, and even about their customs), 5) most people (even Sisko had not been to Trill. A few other things are: Dax seemed to immerse itself in other cultures but only volunteered information about itself/its culture/homeworld on a need-to-know basis and other Trill seemed to be wary of other species (as shown by the way the Trill scientists acted in “Rejoined” and the way Cmdr. Sisko and Dr. Bashir were treated on Trill in “Equilibrium”). My conclusions are that Trill is an independent system with no other claims in space, who keep to themselves, and whose only influence on the quadrant is diplomacy. Nathan 03:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

2008

First, I would like to express my utter shock at how level-headed, even-tempered and convivial this discussion has been. Wikipedia can learn a thing or two from all of you. Second, although not canon, I would just like to mention that Star Trek: Star Charts mentions Trill (Trillius Prime) as having joined the UFP in 2273. Someone may want to ask Geoffrey Mandel where he acquired this information.--Metron4 03:27, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

2009

First forgive me if i have covered something already mentioned i have read most of whats here but not all unfortuanly but i have to side with the Trill being members of the Federation as we have seen atleast two ambassidors and i have seen several Trill serving as starfleet officers and Ezri Dax's Family ran a buisness on a Human planet. And if you noticed for Nog to jion starfleet he had to have a letter from a starfleet officer approving his acceptance how ever there have been that many Trill that Starfleet would have recieaved an overwelming amount of letters of apparoval. And altho i was never seen i remember two incedences were a Trill would have served in the TOS Timeline Odan was one as the length of time he described as serveing federation would have taken up at least two hosts and Jadzia mentioned that a Trill once severed one the Enterprise under Kirk. A few years ago i read a article on the Trill it stated that some of the Federation Top scientist were Trill as their knowledge and experinces get past on to the next host making the more knowledgeable and the wisdom to use it appriotly. Please forgive any spelling mistakes --92.8.110.172 02:02, 14 April 2009 (UTC)Obsidian

I'm goner have to agree with Obsidian i've seen quite abit of what is mentioned and there is far to much evidence to support the Trill as being members regardless of what we think. Paramount has stated that Canon infomation is up to what the majority agrees on. So with that said it looks like we will have to count the yeys and nays. --Garris-fraya 02:39, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Not quite how it works. Canon here is what is seen/heard on screen and not up to vote. There has been nothing seen/heard on screen that explicitly states that Trill is a member species of the Federation and therefor anything that states it is a member would be speculation/original research. — Morder 03:27, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

yea i got that was an phrase i decided to use since the owners of the Material Have left it to us, witch means we will never know 100%--Garris-fraya 03:43, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I just want to point out that a character's knowledge of the biology/history/culture/etc. of a people have no bearing on whether that people are in the Federation. In "The Savage Curtain," when Spock mentioned Surak, the father of Vulcan logic, a key historical (almost religious) figure on par with Jesus or Muhammad, Kirk said "Who?" I don't take this as evidence that the Vulcans were not members of the Federation.--Trebligoniqua 19:43, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I Saw an episode of enterprise Yesterday(two days and two nights) and you should recall Keyla(the feamale alien who tried to get info from archer) well Archer called her a Suliban who'd been altered to pass as a Tandaran and said that they missed the bone part on the forehead(almost circular/trianglular shape). But she had Trill spots going down the sides of her face and down the rest of her body, and then look at Colonel Grat a Tandar Male and he has no spots but has the bony thing on his fore head witch has a similar look to Odan. So i was just thinking is it possible that the Trill wernt always called Trill and they changed the name of their species later and this would also mean that they had contact with humans before the Fedearation was founded. And could mean that wile we dont know what species attened Archers speech witch founed the federation(Except Andrians, Vulcans, Tellarites) they could have been present in someway as a lot could have happend in almost 20 years since the first encounter with enterprise --Garris-fraya 02:26, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I think we can agree that the Federation is somewhat like the United States. A member of the Federation would be a state (like California). There are people who work in or for the US who are not US-Citizens, at Universities for example. Or there are people from countries outside the USA who are now US-citizens and are government officials too (Arnold Schwarzenegger for example). Both explains why Trill are among the leading Federation scientists and why a Trill could be a Federation ambassador even if the Trill people are not members of the Federation. --Maxwell Fawkes 19:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

"First, I would like to express my utter shock at how level-headed, even-tempered and convivial this discussion has been. .--Metron4 03:27, 25 June 2008 (UTC)" Welcome to "Starfleet"... this is "how we roll". The simple, inexorable truth is that in properly holding to "cannon", there may never be a definitive answer. As has been admirably addressed, this has never been stated "on screen". I choose to list Trill as a member for two reasons: 1) I belive any race that has been so capable, eloquent, and accepting of foreign policies/customs/ideas as the Trill (as I have viewed/interpreted them) would be actively courted by the UFP for membership. This is not to say the entire race behaves so, but I feel establishes a "template" of intelligent beings who have seen most, done much, and yet are continually reborn(?) with a sense of purpose most of us feel only in early adult life. Perhaps this is "functionally" true of only joined Trill, but given the apparent reverance joining has in Trill society it seems likely that "hopefully-too-be-joined hosts" would cultivate an openess for ideas and experiences to prepare for whatever memories/experiences may come from their symbiote. If any "presented" race has UFP all over it, I would submit it is the Trill. 2) There are 150 member races, most of which are unnamed. This was done to leave room for future writers to fill in blanks... and I belive the very existence of this debate has given the Trill authority to claim one of them. I also believe... we all welcome dissenting opinion. Rami668 10:32, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

In the episode 4x06 Rejoined where Jadzia meets a previous wife of Dax, it is stated that becoming intimate with a former host's lover is a taboo resulting in exile. I think it's highly unlikely that the Federation would accept a planet which is willing to exile a member of its group for committing a taboo, thereby sentencing the symbiont to a death sentence. 68.230.157.200 17:10, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

2010

Several people have mentioned the similarities between the UFP and the USA. I'd just like to note that US citizenship is not required to serve in our armed forces. In fact, many resident non-citizens serve in our military specifically because they automatically become eligible for citizenship afterward. – 97.73.64.151 10:12, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

Someone may correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe enlistment in the US armed forces only speeds up the citizenship process. I do not think it is automatic. --Andaryn 02:32, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

Guess for TNG vs DS9 trills

Several fan sites discuss the question to know why TNG and Ds9 trill looks so different. I have a personal guess :

• The name "trill" in fact refer to he species of the symbiont, not the humanoids.

These symbionts have somehow developed the capability to be "connected" with two humanoid species, from two different planets.

• After centuries, both species tend to be referred as "trill" even though it's not a proper name.

i recognized this explanation is not sufficient. For instance, when jadzia dies, they absolutely need to transplant dax into a trill. By contrast, Odan's symbiont can live in riker. -- Rami

... Or, and now this is a crazy idea, maybe it's just because the DS9 producers didn't like that look, and maybe every tiny aesthetic difference doesn't always need to be explained. Whenever Trek tries to back explain aesthetic differences we end up with fiascoes like that Klingon virus nonsense. -- some guy

My guess: The DS9 Trills are the dominant style of Trills, and in these, the symbiont can (and does) form very strong relationship with the Trill and it is more of a partnership; quite ideal. The TNG Trill (like Odan) are simply another group who found that they could also join with these symbionts long ago, so they were also called Trill. However, the relationship here is not as good. The symbiont gains full control and the body is essentially a vessel for the symbiont. Since there isn't as strong of a relationship here, the symbiont can temporarily be transferred to another non-Trill, like what occurred with Riker. Since this joining is not as good as the first, it becomes less and less popular, so much to the point that we hardly ever see the TNG-Trill, even though they are still technically considered Trill. My take, anyway. -Platypus Man | Talk 05:24, 25 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Well, considering that at least two sentient species evolved on the Trill homeworld, it seems entirely likely that a third could have. Jaz 09:06, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)

It does seem possible that the term trill refers to the symbiote, not the humanoid species, given that during the hearing in "Dax," both Sisko and Tandro refer to Jadzia becoming a Trill, meaning she was not already one before she was joined. 69.249.38.60 03:44, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Only 1 in every 1000 trill are given a symbiont. When referring to the symbiont, it is called that whether joined or unjoined. The humanoids in question have been consistently referred to as the Trill, and those without the worm have been called unjoined trill. Also, please join MA. Click the blue link in the top-right corner of the screen and all you have to do is pick a name and a password - you don't even need to give an e-mail if you don't want to. Jaz ^{talk | novels} 03:57, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Two different races with similar names and similar biologies. EG: people from Ghana and Guinea might look alike, but they are from two different countries.

maybe it was faulty genetic engineering LOL!! – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.199.55.143 .

Maybe a Trill Augment virus? :P --From Andoria with Love 20:14, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmm....Jadzia said in the episode with Verad that 1 in 10 trill are chosen to be joined..... Its entirely possible, although, that not all chosen Trill are actually joined... Jaxin

RE: Platypus222: I agree with this idea. It might also be that the "spotted" Trills are a species native to the same planet as the Trill Symbionts, and thus the joint relationship is older and better evolved, while the "ridged" or TNG Trills originated on another planet, and came into contact with the Symbionts later, found they could join, but that they could not have as symbiotic a relationship with their symbionts. --Jadza 17:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

If one were to go to the official Star Trek website and look up trill in the encylopedia they have, one would find these words: "Among the humanoid Trill joined species, apparently at least two races of hosts are used to house a symbiont: those of the ridged forehead, like Odan, and those like Jadzia, Curzon and Selin, with a narrow speckled band running along the hairline to the sides of the neck, then down along the body."--lifeisharsh20

Personally I think this issue have been made over complicated. In every single animal on earth there are sub-species, including Humans, Neanderthals are a sub-species of human. There is no biological sense in thinking that sentient animals on have one species. A simple answer would be is that the TNG Trills are merely a less common sub-species of Trill. With that, the TNG symbiont looks different from the DS9 symbiont, so it is possible there is another sub-species of Trill symbiot (which may only be able to join with the TNG Trill), or more likely, its just a variation, like skin colour in humans. The TNG Trills (or the Beta-Trill Species as I have sometime heard them called)will have some biological differences, which means they dont mix well with transporters, while the DS9 Trills do not have this biological problem. ~Bednall667

Overcomplicated? It doesn't seem a minor biological difference that in the TNG Trill the symbiont completely controls the humanoid, while on DS9 they are permanently joined as fused personalities. This is on top of the fact that the whole point of the TNG episode was Odan trying to continue his romantic relationship with Beverly Crusher from inside a new body, whereas this is considered taboo in the culture of the DS9 Trills. Add too the fact that the Federation has no idea that the Trills are a joined species at all when encountered on TNG, yet on DS9 Trills have had close contact with Earth for over a century and some have even been appointed to important Federation positions. Considering that the idea of a sub-species in and of itself doesn't go very far toward resolving these inconsistencies, the issue is complicated indeed. It does absolutely deserve further discussion.

I can only think that Odan may have been a kind of rebel who began joining with other species in his travels as an ambassador, and that at that time the Federation had not been informed that Trills were anything other than the humanoids they appeared to be. In this scenario, Odan would be endangering Trill society by possibly allowing the the secret to get out that joining was not as exclusive as its leaders had claimed--a secret later revealed on DS9, and here extending the principle even to other humanoid species with presumably similar biological makeups to the Trill. I would further conjecture that Odan was intentionally practicing a warped form of the "joining" in which he essentially took control of the humanoid body, a practice of conceivable use to an ambassador but ethically questionable and having medical consequences--which is why Odan's connection with his host body can be jeopardized even by use of the transporter. This explanation tries to tie the inconsistencies about Odan into one another to minimize the necessary conjectures: he is following hardly any of their ethical practices, but even with the relatively slight visual differences between the symbiont as it appeared on the two different series, he is at least still plausible as a Trill. When faced with necessary conjectures, it seems to me that it requires the least invention to make Odan a highly unconventional member of the species, rather than creating a whole subspecies, Trill breakaway faction, radically different subculture or even two already unlikely separate symbiont species which, in a fantastic coincidence, would both have a name that sounds like "Trill."

Offscreen, in between TNG "The Host" and DS9, the Federation must have learned of the true nature of the Trill and been presented with some glossed-over explanation about Odan which made sure to establish the way practiced on the Trill homeworld as the "right" way. Thus, in this speculative explanation, it is unlikely that the Trill planet was a Federation member before then, even though individual Trills may have had much contact with the Federation prior to the revelation of this information. They may well have become members afterward, though I don't believe there is a clear statement either way.

I offer these conjectures for those who might wish to prepare half-plausible italicized notations for the article in an effort to explain the problematic contradictory elements which will have to be contained within it. Defensible rationalizations in italics are a much better choice than simply letting the article whitewash the major differences between the depictions of "Trills" on TNG and DS9.--Guest, 05:51 14 February 2007

I'm not sure where I came across the idea first, but in discussion with others, the best idea we came up with was the existence of three species on Trill, the symbionts plus "Alpha" and "Beta" Trill for lack of a better term.

Alpha Trills, like the host of Odan, are completely subsumed by the symbiont's personality - the host is in complete control, making the relationship more parasitic than symbiotic. This is probably how the relationship originally started on the Trill homeworld. It's also highly likely that every Alpha Trill can carry a symbiont... besides, you don't need any sort of exhaustive tests when the symbiont is running the body anyway.

On the flip side, Beta Trills, like Jadzia, Curzon, and Ezri, share the experience with the symbiont - a truly symbiotic relationship. While 50% of Beta Trill are physiologically capable of being bound with a symbiont, the number that are psycologically capable of it is significantly lower, hence the original need for the Symbiosis Commission. – Timothy J. Lanza 20:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

RE Bednall667: again, the transporter-phobia was a ruse; the trill did not want the symbiont to be detected, as it would be if it were teleported.

RE Guest: this explanation, while plausible, is overcomplicated. A simpler explanation would be that the trill homeworld is home to two humanoid and one symbiont species who can join with both. (it doesn't seem likely that the humanoids are 2 varieties of one species, as a difference as great as psychic dominance implies distant relation.) One of the humanoid species reacts differently to joining than the other. as for the differing appearance of the symbionts in DS9 and TNG, they may simply be variations within the species, or the Odan symbiont is a mutant, or it could be explained away as a production gaffe. As for reassociation, the DS9 trill were reluctant to bring up the issue to Dax or her former mate; the same may have been the case with Odan. 70.171.187.183 18:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

RE lifeisharsh20: I feel I should add the fact that all life on earth can be called Terrans (or Earthlings), yet only one be called Humans due to we all come from Terra (aka Earth yet only one species is call Human), since both species are from the Planet Trill, its acceptable to call both Trills, yet they might have seperate species names on their homeworld. Something like that at least. 86.142.249.94 18:20, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

RE

I’m strangely watching TNG: “The Host” right now on Virgin 1.

Odan has just told B.Crusher “It has always been this way, the Trill are a joined species, the host and the symbiont, in this fashion we have survived for a millennia” he suggests the Trill are the symbiont, and the host is no more then a vesill, which goes against the DS9 Trill, which are a true joining of both minds. The episode suggests through out the Trill are out side of the Federation’s jurisdiction.

And like the two different Humanoid’s, the to Trill symbionts look dramatically different also.

I would love to believe the two species [one with spots, and other with cranial ridges] were separate species. Odan’s people needed the joining to maintain the survival of he’s speices and Star Fleets communication’s doesn’t recognise the difference between the two species, nor the difference between a joined and non-joined entity. The term Trill meaning, “to be joined” in one of the many Federation languages as in English one would say “German” instead of Dutch.. or a reference to “trill”, a musical ornament consisting of a rapid alternation between TWO adjacent notes of a scale. I would like to believe along a go, the Trill travelled the galaxy, at which time the Symbionts were stolen by other species, hence the Trill’s need for secrecy about their joining. This great Trill Empire may have even given life to the Kriosian and Valtese species from TNG “perfect mate”, where we’re first introduced to the empathic metamorph…

But lets face it, in the same way Klingon’s and the Borg have been given a lick of paint, so have the Trill. I doubt Judzia’s sexy bisexual ways would have been as alluring with Cranial Ridges. Could it be Picard sexual desires for female Kriosian empathic metamorph, Kamala was more about the Trill like spots then her metamorphic abilities? ~ Tooleyse1

Who controls the Trill humanoid? The symbiont or the humanoid?

It appears that Jadzia Dax and other humanoid Trill retain control of their bodies after being implanted with a symbiont. However, Captain Sisko often called her "Old Man", implying that the humanoid Jadzia was being controlled by the symbiont, Dax. The host inherits the memories, abilities, etc. of past hosts, but does the symbiont take control over the humanoid's body?

The article Dax (symbiont), states this:

• "Each joining of Dax with a host created a new, unique individual, but each individual also carried the memories of the previous hosts."

Do we have evidence to support this claim? 69.105.1.34 00:59, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, pretty much any Dax-oriented episodes (and a few others) of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine support this claim. :P --From Andoria with Love 02:04, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Or Sisko was just refering to Jadzia as old man because he knew that she had Curzon's memories and Sisko called him that.ACES HIGH 07:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

There is strong canon evidence that each joining creates (at least in the view of Trill culture) a new individual, yes. Just for example, Jadzia Dax is married to Worf, but Ezri Dax is not -- the woman Worf married is dead. Memories, however, are retained, as is revealed in "The Host" and expounded in various DS9 episodes. --Jonadab, 2007 Feb 4

I've gota say from what i've seen we Watching DS9 ACES HIGH has hit the nail on the head Jadzia is not curzon despite having his memories and feelings. Sisko stated that he served under Curzon for many years so it would make sence that Sisko would have known this and its probably just a old habit as he even Called Ezri old man a few times. And Jonadab to appears to have hit the target that is all very true infact there is a Trill law that states if a Trill gets involed with a previous Hosts Relationship the Symbiont is to be banished from the planet Trill and will eventuly die with out a new host and this was to ensure each host gets to live there own lift. Carnt remember the Episode if i do or some one else does i hope you will mention it. --Garris-fraya 02:26, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I think this is a very complicated and philosophical topic. "The Host" suggests that the symbiont controls everything. But many aspects of that episode can be disregarded. And when the symbiont controls everything, why would anyone voluntarily be a host? And even work hard to become one?

As mentioned above, Sisko stated once that with each joining a new personality is created. And we can clearly observe that Jadzia and Ezri have completely different personalities. Jadzia is more of a joker and Ezri is not.

Joran was joined for six months. So clearly the Dax smybiont did not have a say in it assuming he didnt enjoy being in the body of a killer.

So who is in control now? Id say in DS9 its the host. The new personality that Sisko was referring to is the result of the new memories. Memories are a huge part of who you are. If you have memories of being in a terrible war you react differently in certain situations than without those memories. So the bunch of new memories that are introduced clearly do change the way you react and behave. We saw in "Facets" that Jadzia adopted the holding hands behind her back from Lela, which is per definition a change in behavior. --Maxwell Fawkes 20:20, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The very strong impression that U have got from watching DS9 over many years is that it's a sort of hybrid between the two look at the 'Facets' episode again - pay special attention to the Curzon / Odo coupling. Something like that. RicoRichmond 00:31, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

They both do. the symbiote/host live in symbiosis forming an symbiotic living with both forming 1 mind. If symbiote is removed, the host will die because the link is severed, but the host will relink to next host. The link is not breakable after 3 days. This is shown on the trial where daxx is on trial on crimes he has done before on last host. Theres also a example of this by the captain sisco, there is 2 "brains" but only 1 mind and 2 almost identical brainwaves. Almost like 2 computers acting as a 1 network. --JHawx 20:05, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Symbionts' Reproduction

How do symbionts reproduce? 91.15.224.239 00:14, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it was said that it takes place in the Caves of Mak'ala, but I'm not sure. Other than that, I don't think the exact method was discussed in canon.--31dot 00:17, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Theres an episode where judgia is sitting in the spawning pool, in order to contact his host better. There nothing that supports this canon, but i belive that these spawning pools acts like a life habitat for the larvas, which upon they breed. On same episode jadgia meets the caretaker of these pools. (or whatever her name is) further supporting the idea that pools are the symbiots home and growing platform before insertion to a hosts.--JHawx 19:58, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Placement?

I can't find the answer on wiki or here, maybe I'm not looking hard enough... is it ever revealed where, physically, the symbiont is located in the host? - 149.156.96.15 12:47, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

We know from "Emissary" and "Invasive Procedures" that an opening is cut roughly in the abdomen for the symbiont to enter, but I can't recall if it remained in that area, though I think so.--31dot 13:39, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

Ah. I assumed as much but I didn't know if that wasn't just Stargate talking. - 149.156.96.15 15:30, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

On DS9, the Jadzia Dax is prepared for removal and is shown to show only chest wrapping, thus the host is located on a belly area (Dr. Julian Bashir) is healing the area abowe of the bellybutton), and is a size of a american football, shaped as a pod and connecceted with umbrical cord like tissue. --JHawx 04:26, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Society

I think theres a misuderstandment on the text. text as originally written to memory alpha: Trill don't look for romance the way Humans do. They consider it quite a nuisance and view it as a weakness of the young. Although a Trill host may have romantic feelings on occasion, it is the symbiont's wish to live on a higher plane and to try to rise above those sorts of temptations. (DS9: "A Man Alone") I think Jadzia Dax was joking with the Julian Bashir, he ment that the Bashir was just a yungling considering that he had had sevral life ages beyond, and temptation to take a "weakness of the young"... Its basicly a Jadzia joking about not being a "Gougar", trying to discourage the Dr. Because if i remember correctly, she and Worf gets together on later series of the DS9... So clearly, you cant propose this as a fact. --JHawx 04:26, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Apocrypha

Has there been any thought of removing this section since it all could, or perhaps even would, be more appropriate on Memory Beta? --Andaryn 02:32, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

While information from noncanon novels/games/etc. cannot be in the main article, it can be mentioned in Apocrypha sections. Memory Beta includes such information in their main articles as their scope is wider (all licensed products). Our mission is to be a "definitive and accurate" encyclopedia and leaving out such information would detract from that mission.--31dot 02:36, March 2, 2010 (UTC)