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: Right. I've finished watching the 9-episode arc, and basically, I can find no evidence or suggestion anywhere that Kosst Amojan is anything but a singular entity. In {{e|The Reckoning}} it's the wraith who possesses Jake; in {{e|Tears of the Prophets}}, it possesses Dukat; in {{e|Image in the Sand}}, it's expelled from the wormhole and Sarah several times refers to it in the singular; in {{e|Covenant}}, Dukat also several times refers to it as a singular individual; and in {{e|What You Leave Behind}}, both Dukat and Winn refer to it in the singular. So there's no ambiguity or contradiction (at least as far as I can tell). It seems fairly clear - Kosst Amojan is a Pah-wraith. So, I'll rewrite the article accordingly as soon as I get a chance. Unless of course anyone can find anything compelling to suggest that there is in fact a degree of ambiguity. – [[User:Bertaut|Bertaut]] <sup>[[User Talk:Bertaut|<span style="color:#FFFF00;">talk</span>]]</sup> 02:15, 5 April 2008 (UTC) |
: Right. I've finished watching the 9-episode arc, and basically, I can find no evidence or suggestion anywhere that Kosst Amojan is anything but a singular entity. In {{e|The Reckoning}} it's the wraith who possesses Jake; in {{e|Tears of the Prophets}}, it possesses Dukat; in {{e|Image in the Sand}}, it's expelled from the wormhole and Sarah several times refers to it in the singular; in {{e|Covenant}}, Dukat also several times refers to it as a singular individual; and in {{e|What You Leave Behind}}, both Dukat and Winn refer to it in the singular. So there's no ambiguity or contradiction (at least as far as I can tell). It seems fairly clear - Kosst Amojan is a Pah-wraith. So, I'll rewrite the article accordingly as soon as I get a chance. Unless of course anyone can find anything compelling to suggest that there is in fact a degree of ambiguity. – [[User:Bertaut|Bertaut]] <sup>[[User Talk:Bertaut|<span style="color:#FFFF00;">talk</span>]]</sup> 02:15, 5 April 2008 (UTC) |
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+ | ::I ''never'' thought "Kosst Amojan" referred to any single PahWraith, but to the PahWraiths collectively. Firstly, it doesn't make sense: ONE pahwraith has a name, and all the others don't? Secondly, a specific pahwraith posessed Jake, and the same exact one posessed Dukat, but then, later, that same one had to be freed from the Fire Caves where it had been imprisoned for millenia? It doesn't make sense that all three would be the same pahwraith. OK, those are the things that contradict the notion that Kosst Amojan is a single individual. Now to argue that the converse is consistent: I ''always'' thought that "Kosst Amojan" refers to the community or the collective of the pahwraiths. As such, it CAN be talked about in the singular. Hossrex above didn't consider cases like how "District Court" does not refer to any single judge, nevertheless one judge's ruling is attributed to The Court. Or how "the spaghetti" doesn't refer to any single piece of spaghetti, but if there's one piece on your shirt, you want to get "the spaghetti" off it. A pahwraith is one of the Kosst Amojan. So when people say "Kosst Amojan" or "the Kosst Amojan" they could be talking about one individual pahwraith just as well as they could be talking about the collective. It depends on the context, just like the other examples I gave. When you watch with this in mind, there's no line of dialog that is contradictory or ambiguous. [[User:SwishyGarak|SwishyGarak]] 18:58, 5 April 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 18:58, 5 April 2008
Would this guy be like the King of the Pah-wraith? Its individual isn't it? Valley Forge 19:21, 18 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Kosst Amojan Seams to me that it refers to ANY Pah-wraith, and is simply an anachronistic term. It also seams that the term is both singular and plural (like sheep), and can refer to an individual as a proper name. It may be like referring to an Egyptian king as Pharaoh, a term which literally means Palace or House of the King, depending on who's translating. But I find the idea that Kosst Amojan is an individual a stretch, and should be reconsidered. --6/6 Neural Transceiver 09:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Just reviving the topic
Its been nearly a year since this was discussed. Does anyone have any insight into this issue? I'd always taken Kosst Amojan to be a singular person... but that seems to be disputed by several episodes. Logic, and proper episode transcripts should be able to pin this down one way or the other, no? If the name ever refers to multiple entities, its impossible to be singular, and thats eliminated. If its ever used as a qualifier for the phrase "Pah Wraiths", it would seem to be a sect, or subtype. We should be able to work this out. Hossrex 01:04, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
- I've just watched "The Reckoning", and that definitely implies that Kosst Amojan is a singular being - he/it is simply an individual Pah-wraith, but I know that this is complicated when the Book of Kosst Amojan gets introduced in season 7. When I get to view those later episodes (which won't be that long, maybe a month or so), I'll try to clear this confusion up if I can, and sort out the article – Bertaut talk 21:50, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Right then, having just watched "Tears of the Prophets", "Image in the Sand" and "Shadows and Symbols", I can confirm that the BG section on this page is wrong. Sarah uses the singular when talking about Kosst Amojan, not the plural, which ties in with what Kai Winn says in "The Reckoning", that Kosst Amojan is an individual Pah-wraith. Here's what Sarah says:
"The Kosst Amojan no longer threatens us. All has been restored." "Threatens us", not "threaten us"; if the Kosst Amojan was more than one, it would be "threaten us." Sisko then says: "You mean the Pah-wraith? It's no longer in the wormhole?" (still singular) to which Sarah says "I have cast it out." (still singular)
I won't make any edits to the page until I get to final arc, but as it stands now, the BG section is wrong in claiming that "Shadows and Symbols" contradicts "The Reckoning". – Bertaut talk 16:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
- Unless it refers to a "host". As in... "The group no longer threatens us." -- Sulfur 17:02, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I've found some more evidence of the argument for a singular entity in the episode "Covenant". Here's what Dukat says when discussing the events of "Tears of the Prophets":
"Oh, I admit, when I allowed myself to become a vessel for the Pah-wraith, I did it for self-serving reasons. I wanted to help it enter the wormhole so it could force the Prophets out. It was nothing more than a way to exact vengeance on Sisko. But I had no idea the effect it would have on me. It was only inside me for a short time, but it opened my heart."
I think this confirms that Kosst Amojan is definitely a singular entity. As for your suggestion Sulfur, it's possible, but I think what Dukat says here suggests otherwise – Bertaut talk 21:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
- Right. I've finished watching the 9-episode arc, and basically, I can find no evidence or suggestion anywhere that Kosst Amojan is anything but a singular entity. In "The Reckoning" it's the wraith who possesses Jake; in "Tears of the Prophets", it possesses Dukat; in "Image in the Sand", it's expelled from the wormhole and Sarah several times refers to it in the singular; in "Covenant", Dukat also several times refers to it as a singular individual; and in "What You Leave Behind", both Dukat and Winn refer to it in the singular. So there's no ambiguity or contradiction (at least as far as I can tell). It seems fairly clear - Kosst Amojan is a Pah-wraith. So, I'll rewrite the article accordingly as soon as I get a chance. Unless of course anyone can find anything compelling to suggest that there is in fact a degree of ambiguity. – Bertaut talk 02:15, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
- I never thought "Kosst Amojan" referred to any single PahWraith, but to the PahWraiths collectively. Firstly, it doesn't make sense: ONE pahwraith has a name, and all the others don't? Secondly, a specific pahwraith posessed Jake, and the same exact one posessed Dukat, but then, later, that same one had to be freed from the Fire Caves where it had been imprisoned for millenia? It doesn't make sense that all three would be the same pahwraith. OK, those are the things that contradict the notion that Kosst Amojan is a single individual. Now to argue that the converse is consistent: I always thought that "Kosst Amojan" refers to the community or the collective of the pahwraiths. As such, it CAN be talked about in the singular. Hossrex above didn't consider cases like how "District Court" does not refer to any single judge, nevertheless one judge's ruling is attributed to The Court. Or how "the spaghetti" doesn't refer to any single piece of spaghetti, but if there's one piece on your shirt, you want to get "the spaghetti" off it. A pahwraith is one of the Kosst Amojan. So when people say "Kosst Amojan" or "the Kosst Amojan" they could be talking about one individual pahwraith just as well as they could be talking about the collective. It depends on the context, just like the other examples I gave. When you watch with this in mind, there's no line of dialog that is contradictory or ambiguous. SwishyGarak 18:58, 5 April 2008 (UTC)