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Talk:Dominion history

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There is Dominion history as well as a history section on Dominion, Vorta and Jem'Hadar. We need to address how we want to work this. Suggestions? Tyrant 12:01, 14 Mar 2005 (GMT)Tyrant

In Talk:History, i proposed the idea of modeling the "XXX history" articles should start off with a simple timeline, then go on to add expository text such as the form in the individual species' page -- at this point, i'd say duplicated information could be moved to the history article -- Captain Mike K. Bartel 15:37, 14 Mar 2005 (GMT)

Removed info Edit

The following was added as background information and removed since I think MA takes the characters' word for it (as per a section in the content policy) unless they're proven to be lying or have been known to lie (i.e. Harry Mudd). --From Andoria with Love 00:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

It is worth noting that the only support for this story comes from the Changelings themselves, when they told it to Odo upon first meeting him, and this story is uncorroborated. On the one hand, it may be unlikely that the Changelings would lie to one of their own, implying that the story is true. On the other hand, they may have wished to temper their true nature with a more sympathetic story at first, at least until Odo was more acclimated with the rest of the Great Link; they did not reveal to Odo that they were not as isolated as they claimed to be, for example, or that they were really the Founders of the Dominion. It is possible that the Changelings founded the Dominion to keep themselves safe from the the Solids; it is also possible, however, that the story of prior persecution is a falsehood and that the Changelings founded the Dominion simply because they saw it as their duty to bring "order" to a "chaotic" universe.

Argument for readdition Edit

In short, the Founder has been known to lie -- and in fact, lied in that very same conversation, when she said that the Changelings lived in isolation and that the Hundred would be their only source of knowledge about the rest of the galaxy -- and her story is, at the very least, suspect.

The Dominion history article notes that Weyoun 6's story about the Vorta's origins may in fact be false, and the Founder's story is, at the least, not any more credible than that. Both are stories that were not disputed directly onscreen, but are supported only by one character who is telling a self-serving story (whether directly self-serving, as the Founder is, or serving the Dominion's propaganda because that's what he was raised to believe, as Weyoun is) that, if not directly contradicted by another character's dialogue, is strongly suspect in light of what we know about the nature of the Dominion. My original note had no cites, admittedly, which is why I changed it to include more cites.

Firstly, given what we have seen on screen, it is hard to see how the Changelings could plausibly have been hunted, beaten, and killed. Even if they can be harmed while in solid form, "Vortex", only the stupidest Changeling would sit there and be beaten to death without changing back into a gelatinous state, where they are seemingly invulnerable to harm by physical blows. See, e.g., "Emissary" (criminal throws a mace which passes harmlessly through Odo's head), "Heart of Stone" (Odo can shield and easily repel a falling rockslide), "Chimera" (Laas cannot be harmed by daggers); cf. "The Ship" (a Changeling who endured acceleration to warp without inertial dampeners still survived for over a day). In order to successfully kill Changelings, their persecutors would have had to possess and use directed energy weapons, and to have this technology millenia ago before the Dominion's founding.

Secondly, given what we have seen on screen, Changelings are nearly impossible to detect when hidden and can easily flee. See "The Adversary" (when Odo turns into a rock, he scans as a rock, and when the Krajensky Changeling mimics the ambassador, he registers as human); "Chimera" (Changelings can travel through space unaided); see also, e.g., "Homefront" (Changelings can infiltrate their enemies' ranks even when specific precautions are being taken against them); "Apocalypse Rising" (same). If they were really being persecuted, only the stupidest Changelings would not hide from, flee, or fight back against their attackers. In order to successfully hunt Changelings, their persecutors would need advanced technology -- advanced far beyond the level of the Federation (which cannot detect Changelings) -- and, assuming the Founder's story is true, it would have had to have this technology millenia ago, predating the Dominion's creation. This seems implausible given the fact that the Founders later grew to dominate their quadrant. It is one thing to say that the Founders conquered neighboring worlds through their superior technology and/or Changeling abilities; it is another thing to say that their neighboring worlds had advanced technology capable of succesfully detecting and killing them, and the Changelings were forced to flee, and yet somehow later, in their isolation, managed to create a Dominion that conquered all of their former foes.

Thirdly, the entire conversation in which the Founder told Odo that they were once persecuted is highly suspect. The Founder, in that same conversation, told Odo that they lived in isolation and had no contact with other worlds (which is patently false) and wholly omitted any mention that they were even connected with the Dominion, much less the leaders of it. The Founder, therefore, was obviously trying to give a more sympathetic image of her people to Odo that was actually true. While even at the end, she adopts a more conciliatory approach with Odo, a fellow Changeling, the Founders treatment of Solids is and has always been highly scornful and not inconsistent with a view that they formed the Dominion solely to "impos[e] order to a chaotic universe" -- the Founder's own words from "The Search, Part II" -- and not out of a legitimate fear of persecution.

It is possible that some elements of the Changeling's story are true -- maybe some Changelings were hunted and killed -- but it seems doubtful that their entire race, with all of its powers, could have been very effectively persecuted if they attempted to fight back. Of course, it is possible that every word the Founder's story is entirely true, despite these implausbilities, but at the very least, skepticism about this story is no less founded than skepticism about the Vorta's origin story. Maybe Eris' story that the Jem'Hadar conquered Kurill Prime is true as well; maybe the Jem'Hadar conquered the Vorta, who were later assimilated into the Dominion and were eventually placed above the Jem'Hadar in the hierarchy. Maybe Weyoun's story about the Vorta's original evolutions is true as well; we have not seen even indirect evidence contradicting this. Nonetheless, despite a quote-unquote "direct contradiction" of these stories, they are rightly called into question when viewed alongside the nature of the Dominion and the questionable honesty and accuracy of their sources, not just in this article but in a number of related articles. See Changeling ("The story came from one of the Founders herself, however, so it is unclear if this is true or a story she created solely for Odo's benefit."); Vorta ("The Vorta believe, perhaps apocryphally, that they previously existed as small, timid, ape-like creatures..."); Kurill Prime ("There's no incontrovertible evidence that Kurill Prime is actually the Vorta homeworld; given that Eris was lying about everything else she could have easily been lying about this as well."). I say that, at the very least, the possible skepticism of the Founder's story should be noted (along with counterarguments) even if not agreed with. Puritan 01:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

A great, lengthy argument, I wish I had time to read it right now. :P In the meantime, please don't re-add removed info until the matter can be discussed ad a general consensus agrees it should go back. Thanks. --From Andoria with Love 01:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I've got a very nice image that shows how easily changelings can be killed, and could have been in the past: Death of the Martok Changeling. That right there seems evidence enough (I haven't had a chance to read the whole argument, but a lot of it seems to be that changelings are so hard to kill). --OuroborosCobra talk 16:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The part I wrote about them being hard to kill only was referencing that they could not be killed by "beatings" (and is just one issue to be taken into account with the other things I raised). Directed energy weapons, of course, can kill Changelings fairly easily ("Crossover", "Apocalypse Rising", and, somewhat relatedly, "The Adversary"), but this would presume that the Changelings' persecutors had such weapons at least two/ten thousand years (depending on which date you take as the founding of the Dominion) ago. Of course, there were some species that were so advanced that long ago (e.g. the Iconians), but whoever they were then, they seem to have disappeared now, or at least don't seem interested in hunting Changelings anymore. It is also worth noting that the Martok Changeling managed to pose as Martok for over a year and only was killed because he revealed himself, presumably because he couldn't hold back his contempt for Odo (why else shapeshift right in front of everyone?), so there's still the issue of detection. Puritan 17:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Consensus? Edit

Any consensus yet on the above?

Well, two people saying it does not belong, one person saying it does. --OuroborosCobra talk 23:41, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
What if we just removed all the heaps of speculation ("One hand", "other hand", "possible", "also possible")? The remaining part would be...:
It is worth noting that the only support for this story comes from the Changelings themselves, when they told it to Odo upon first meeting him, and this story is uncorroborated.
...and while I don't think such a note would be absolutely necessary, I could live with it, perhaps in a slightly rephrased form - more than that? No, not necessary. -- Cid Highwind 23:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
My problem is that it implies that the changelings are lying about that story, and I see no reason to believe that. --OuroborosCobra talk 23:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
On the other hand, it attributes a bit of information to a specific person and circumstance - something this site should perhaps do more often than less. It might not be a bad thing to at least acknowledge that she wasn't telling the truth in many other parts of the same story - can we perhaps work on a good compromise instead of outright refusal of this? -- Cid Highwind 00:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not yet convinced she was lying on the other parts of her story. --OuroborosCobra talk 00:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Wow, I complete forgot about all this. Having read Puritan's argument (a damned fine one and well-researched at that), I would say a note suggesting that the female changeling may have been lying can be added. The first sentence of Puritan's addition (as rewritten by Cid above) is a good compromise, I think; nothing wrong with stating a character might be lying in the background, I guess, so long as it's a brief note and not an entire paragraph. --From Andoria with Love 00:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I would put ALL the stories in, with clear citations as to who told WHICH story, and then put an italics section afterwards noting that one or more of these stories are quite possibly either partial or total fabrications, and that there is no clear indication WHICH if any are in any respect true.Capt Christopher Donovan 09:56, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Blight Edit

It says here that "the domionion made a similar example on Boranis III." This is controdiction. on the Boranis three page, it says that it is uncertain weather the dominion infected the people. This needs clearing up. – 7th Tactical 05:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Revert Edit

I revert the changes made by an anon since I don't find them to be original research as was claimed. Pointing out that a source may be dubious in a bg note is fine, as as far as I know, inline with our policies. - Archduk3 18:16, September 30, 2010 (UTC)

I think the last two sentences of Background Information should be (re)-removed. This just seems to be speculation based on Wolfe's quote.– Cleanse ( talk | contribs ) 01:45, October 1, 2010 (UTC)

Founding date Edit

I've adjusted the date to bookend dates. Weyoun says the Dominion had existed for 2,000 years in "To the Death", which isn't the same as saying it was founded in 2,000 BC as they would be 4,000 years ago given that the in-universe date at the time in the 2370s, so I adjusted that to the 4th century AD. Also adjusted the earlier date for the same reason, the Jem'Hadar leading the Dominion's armies from 10,000 years isn't the same as saying they have led the Dominion's armies from the 10th millennium BC. – 12:21, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

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