Moves
I don't disagree with the page itself, but as everything it would potentially contain would be non-canon until proven otherwise, how should it be formatted? Dangerdan97 15:38, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- This should have been discussed again before it was moved again... Production sources say it is a constitution class, so MA follows suit. Besides these made-up fan-wank names are worse than nothing at all. --Alan 19:43, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Alan on that. --From Andoria with Love 19:48, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- Does production say that, or just some website used for advertising, where info may be inaccurate (as in: not really decided by anyone in charge)? -- Cid Highwind 10:30, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
More militaristic?
It's more militaristic because it fired weapons at an enemy? How is the old Enterprise less militaristic then? -- Captain MKB 17:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
- The constitution class was designed after the Romulan war. Prior to that war, ships of the line were not purpose armed for combat, only peacekeeping and defensive purposes. The NX-01 was launched without any active weaponry at all. - Paul 1/31/2010 4:12pm EST
Do we need this article?
The duplicate information in the background section indicates otherwise. The film hasn't established anything definite about the ship class in general, only about the Enterprise itself. If we should start seeing other ships of the class and potential differences between them, then this page might slowly begin to expand, in terms of collecting information that certainly applies to the class in general, but the Enterprise page would probably end up having most of the information, since other ships of the class and the class in general are unlikely to be covered that well.
Certainly, one could say the same for many other class articles on Memory Alpha. It is inconsistent with the wiki-approach to assume by some convention that everything that holds true for a specific hero ship also applies to its class in general. This is not the TNG tech manual, where the writers had the license to be creative and decide how much of the Enterprise-D applies to the Galaxy-class. On Memory Alpha, one might mention all the other ships of the class, Leah Brahms and the Galaxy class project, but nothing observed only on the Enterprise and thus impossible to reference for the Yamato, Odyssey, Galaxy, etc. – NotOfTheBody 21:52, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
- The Memory Alpha precedent is that technical information about a ship's class is encompassed on the class page, and the specific missions, individuality, and other variables, of a specific vessel goes in said vessel's article. Besides that, I'm really not seeing what you are otherwise suggesting. --Alan 22:03, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
Precedent cannot override the ability to reference information, which is at the core of every wiki. Examples:
with phaser banks firing both multiple short burst rounds or steady beams along with torpedoes simultaneously in a barrage.
firing red pulses (like proximity blasts), capable of continuous fire. (Star Trek)
Can we add canon references proving that this applies to all Constitution-class ships, not just to the Enterprise? – NotOfTheBody 22:26, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
- Do we need to? Is there reason to believe that this ship doesn't represent the norm, and is massively different from the rest? The burden of proof would seem to me to be on proving that it is different from its class, not the same. Throughout Trek, the example has been that all ships of a same class are generally the same in capabilities and design, with the possible exception of what the bridge looks like. --OuroborosCobra talk 22:36, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
In a wiki, every sentence has to be referenced. Would you make a factual wiki statement about all real world aircraft carriers of the same class, based on a feature observed on one of them? Yes, the rational hypothesis will usually involve the feature being present on other ships of the class, but in a wiki you need evidence. And it's not like we're losing any useful info - it is a simple matter to put it on the page where it can be referenced: the Enterprise page. – NotOfTheBody 22:55, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
- In regards to the aircraft carrier, yes, I would go on one example, when that is all we have. In fact, they do that on Wikipedia. See pages such as the one for the Littoral Combat Ship. --OuroborosCobra talk 23:06, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
I don't see how that can be the correct approach. If so, the Constitution article ought to be filled with a lot of words such as "probably", "presumably", "almost certainly" etc, but we can avoid all that simply by moving the info to the Enterprise page. Why pretend to have more facts about the class than we really do, just because of a convention? I don't see any problems with the Enterprise page being lengthy and the Constitution page being short. – NotOfTheBody 23:15, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
- I have reversed your changes, as this discussion is still continuing and there is still opposition. You claim that "every statement has to be referenced" but you do not provide a reference from canon backing your views up, you just want us to make your assumptions. Without evidence that different ships of the same class have variations, we assume they are the same. This is the case with many things here, not just ships.
- As has been explained to you already, there are other reasons for this type of structure as well.--31dot 09:13, January 30, 2010 (UTC)
No, you should provide references from the canon. I've provided evidence that the Enterprise has certain features, based on the movie, and that's all I can do. I won't jump to conclusions about all ships of the class, and I fail to see why the danger of such assumptions is not obvious. Tomorrow, the VFX guys could decide that another ship of the class should fire green phasers, just to be different, and then your referenced "fact" on the Constitution-class page will turn out to be wrong, unless it was qualified with "seen on the Enterprise" and "presumably applies to all ships of the class", which would be redundant, as you could just as well put the info on the Enterprise page without such qualifications.
My referenced fact on the Enterprise page won't be wrong. I really sense a need to compete with the TNG tech manual, which had the creative license to generalize the Ent-D info into the Galaxy-class info, but we don't have such a license here. The canon reality is that there are featured ships like the Enterprise about which we know a lot, and then there are class names which are only interesting to a smaller group of fans. We cannot sidestep this bias by leaping to conclusions about the class in general, simply based on observations of one ship. Yes, it is a rational hypothesis that ships will be almost identical, but that's not the same as verifiable fact. It's the difference between a wiki and creative endeavor such as a tech manual.
– NotOfTheBody 10:14, January 30, 2010 (UTC)
- It is a good point that our class articles look like all ships of a class are supposed to have the same properties unless proven otherwise. I suppose we are relying on the readers to interpret the data in cases when there is only one known ship of the class. and from the reference cites when there are many. But technical and layout info should still go to a class page for the sake of a simpler read of an article. --Pseudohuman 12:46, January 30, 2010 (UTC)
I don't see how it would be a simpler read to have a Constitution-class article filled with "X was seen on the Enterprise, Y was seen on the Enterprise", just so that we can remove any assumptions about X and Y also being on other ships of the class, or to refer unsuspecting readers to an artificial convention by which a feature is automatically assumed to be present on a class (as if this were some kind of a speculative or creative site) unless proven otherwise.
It would be simple enough to have the Constitution-class article be only a stub, consistent with our lack of info on the class in general, and to put most of the info on the Enterprise page, in accordance with the fact that we haven't seen any other ships. After all, the average reader doesn't care about the Constitution class and will want to find the Enterprise info on the Enterprise page. Why bother him with the distinction between the ship page and the class page? Such an expectation is consistent with the canon - the moviemakers want us to focus on the ship, not on the class (which isn't even mentioned by name), so they didn't provide us with any information on the class in general.
I could understand a lengthy class page concerning the Nebula class for instance - most of the info is just bits and pieces from individual ships and it would make sense to collect it in one article so it's all in one place. However, even there the article would still have to be worded so it's clear that Feature X was seen on Ship 1, and Feature Y on Ship 2. So far, none of the commenters have been able to provide a detailed explanation for this risky business of assuming that a class has a particular feature even if it was only seen on one ship - imagine if this were a real-world article, and someone were to rely on information that all ships have a particular feature, with the only evidence being information obtained from one ship. Sure, the reader can probably see for himself that the information really comes from one ship, but why confuse him out of mere desire to have a detailed class page? – NotOfTheBody 14:04, January 30, 2010 (UTC)
- It's just a convention we have had on all ship pages, that the specific ship page tells only about the missions and crew of a ship and another article "the class page" tells of all the technology, layout and specifics of the ships. I personally would not oppose the idea of being more specific on class pages about which ship of the class the facts are derived from, but I still see the necessity for the division between individual ship pages and class pages even if all the info comes from one ship. --Pseudohuman 14:27, January 30, 2010 (UTC)
Class name
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii297/CaptChristopherDonovan/snapshot165720091029225.jpg
Based on this image, by Capt Christopher Donovan, which apparently comes from the "virtual set tour", the class name should be changed to Starship, assuming this is all legit. If we do that, we could just place it at Starship class with a disambiguation at the top for the prime Constitution class. - Archduk3 23:29, May 24, 2010 (UTC)