Talk:Borg Queen/archive

Be sure to include that the Borg's worst defeat was in Endgame. (although that may go on Borg page)(and also "her majesty's" photo)

You know what would really be neat? Photo's of every different Borg Queen (Allice Kridge, Susannah Thompson, etc..) in one side-bar. You could compare them. -- Redge 14:09, 25 Jul 2004 (CEST)

There have only been two borg queen actresses. --Gvsualan 02:07, 7 Mar 2005 (GMT)

Unless we count Lanya (Kellie Waymire), heh. Tyrant 02:30, 7 Mar 2005 (GMT)Tyrant

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Which actor is in the pic? Tyrant 22:55, 6 Mar 2005 (GMT)Tyrant

Well if the picture title is correct "BorgQueen2373", I'm sure you can figure it out ;) --Gvsualan 02:07, 7 Mar 2005 (GMT)

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the queen's conciousness lives in the network itself. a personafication of the collective consciousness. destroying any one of the queen will not harm the collective, as long as there is still any part of the collective in existence.

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Isn't the Borg Queen Kobali? She certainly looks like one, and it could provide a clue as to the Borg's origins, as the Kobali are basically all reanimated corpses.

She may well be, but I personally don't think so. Since this is never stated or implied, nothing here will say anything about that. Also, how would the Kobali's being reanimated corpses explain the origins of the Borg? -Platypus Man | Talk 22:41, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC)

pna-incomplete

Needs info on the "Unimatrix Zero" episodes.--T smitts 06:23, 19 Jul 2005 (UTC)

It appears that the single-queen idea is only an assumption

I am still researching this but there appears to be nothing stating that there is only one single instance of Borg Queen, at any given time. It is an assumption. If anyone else here has any clues as to where something like that might be stated in canon, please feel free to speak up. Cannons go "BOOM"! 02:52, 12 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Not sure it has been stated, but if it was it would have most likely been in Dark Frontier. However, we also can't assume there are multiple Queens without direct statement. So if anything more ambiguous wording might be the best solution. Logan 5 03:20, 12 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Okay, well it's already on the list for review and yes I am up early :( Cannons go "BOOM"! 03:37, 12 Oct 2005 (UTC)

• The use of *the* in The Queen and the comparisons to insect colonies seems to lean towards there being one. Jaf 03:27, 12 Oct 2005 (UTC)Jaf
  • If I talk about "the" ant then I am speaking of a single instance out of many possible. Ergo, even the semantics are ambiguous and misleading. This is what I am getting at here Cannons go "BOOM"! 03:37, 12 Oct 2005 (UTC)

I just reviewed Dark Frontier

It is definitely obvious that the Borg Queen travels and is not rooted to her Unicomplex (or does not have to be). However, the Borg Queen, at the transwarp hub, being directly connected to all the interspatial manifolds, cannot travel. In addition, from EndGame, there is good evidence to suggest that each transwarp hub requires it's own Queen for smooth operations. From this, we have grounds to make the case that there are multiple Queens and that Borg Queen may be only a type of Borg, a rare type, but only a type. Major Pita 13:45, 12 Oct 2005 (UTC)

I am the first, the beginning, the end, the one that is many. I am the Borg.

To me it seems obvious that the Borg Queen was meant to be a personification of the whole collective, not an individual that controls it or parts of it. If we want to speculate, this could of course mean that the collective could choose any number of representations (=queens) at the same time - but we try to avoid speculation here. -- Cid Highwind 13:54, 12 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Agree with Cid here. As noted on the Talk:Unicomplex page,

However, the Borg Queen, at the transwarp hub, being directly connected to all the interspatial manifolds, cannot travel. In addition, from EndGame, there is good evidence to suggest that each transwarp hub requires it's own Queen for smooth operations. From this, we have grounds to make the case that there are multiple Queens' is speculation unless there is direct statement to say as much.

I don't recall any mention that she could not travel, nor that "directly connected" to the interspatial manifolds means "physically connected". All borg are "directly connected" to the Collective, even if they are not "physically connected" all the time. I'm also not sure what "good evidence" we have for the one-hub/one-Queen idea since good evidence usually means a script reference. Logan 5 14:03, 12 Oct 2005 (UTC)

(re:Logan) Good evidence is not limited to scripts only. Visual effects are also canon. Assumptions regarding there being only one instance of Queen are also not supported in script or canon, that I can find, anywhere. Ergo, neither will I accept that limitation. Major Pita 14:20, 12 Oct 2005 (UTC)

(re:Cid) First, I really want to know where that quote is from ;) However, it is absolutely clear that that is the voice of the collective, speaking for the collective and not the Borg Queen. To assume a single queen is also rampant speculation. In fact it is less supported than the Borg Queen as type of Borg theory. Logically, having a Nexus/Queen type makes sense to operate large complexes or specific types of complex construct, like a transwarp hub. It is also consistant with Borg psychology that there is never a 'single' of anything, they despise uniqueness and destroy it by assimilation and replication. They are not going to have a single unique Queen. However, the latter is speculation, as is the assumption that there exists only one single instance of Borg Queen. Major Pita 14:20, 12 Oct 2005 (UTC)

The quote is from First Contact. Re-reading the article, it doesn't even state that there's "only one" queen. What exactly are we discussing about? :) -- Cid Highwind 14:33, 12 Oct 2005 (UTC)

(re:Slamlander) True, on screen visuals do count. But lack of direct evidence for one or the other calls for an ambiguous note on the article, not a hard statement thatt there are multiple, or only one. Also, as noted below, there is no quote saying there is only one queen in the article so I'm not sure what the debate is about.

All of what you have noted below in response to Cid is part of the big Borg debate that's been going on since First Contact, but it's all speculation. It may be logical inside a certain theory of the Borg, but it's not canon. Logan 5 14:45, 12 Oct 2005 (UTC)

I've never seen Endgame, but I've seen First Contact, and I think it's safe to say the only reason the Borg Queen would appear at all after she already died is because the Borg are the most popular villain in Trek history. The fact is she was intended to be a single person in First Contact, but like all of the good Batman villains in the moviese, they killed her off. Any evidence suggesting one thing or another about multiple queens is one of those continuity errors (like the Klingon make-up prior to the "Augment" BS) they figure the fans can come up with their own explanations for. Maybe I'm out in left field, but that's how I see it. --Schrei 15:18, 12 Oct 2005 (UTC)

You may indeed have the truth of it here but I'll be satisfied to just get to the evidence the have in End Game. That is what any future ST stories are going to use, after all. BTW, I just finished End Game. Major Pita 15:26, 12 Oct 2005 (UTC)

(re:Cid) Quoteing from the page in question, The Borg Queen (played by Alice Krige and Susanna Thompson) is a single entity that exists as a nexus of the Borg Collective. (emphasis mine). I'm perfectly willing to leave it ambiguous. However, I'm not willing to leave it even emplied that there is only a single Borg Queen instance. Major Pita 15:26, 12 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Well, every Borg Queen we saw was a "single entity" (vs. "the collective" of the Borg), right? -- Cid Highwind 15:35, 12 Oct 2005 (UTC)

;P Even you, making that argument, don't believe it. That's not how it parses and that's not what it says, and it certainly implies that there is only one Queen. Be careful not to byte on that tongue in your cheek ;P Major Pita 12:06, 13 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Right. Single entity in this case means a distinct aspect of the collective not "one and only one". A Borg entity can be in both mulitple physical locations and in a single location, just as the collective is housed within every drone and a single drone at the same time. But if the consensus is really that this is confusing I'd say just strike single and say "entity". 65.166.218.250 19:21, 12 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Riddle me this; While it is possible that the Borg Queen may travel and remain connected to all the interspatial manifolds of all the transwarp hubs (EndGame)this presents a problem; In First Contact, there was a Queen on the Borg vessel that went into the past. Even trasnwarp communications do not cross time. Therefore, the Borg were cut off from their Queen while she was out of the timeline. There had to be more than one Queen at the time of the Battle of Sector 001. Major Pita 22:34, 13 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Could be one "being" with many bodies, not unlike the rest of her people. But, lets not forget that she accused Picard/Data (not sure which) of thinking three dimensionally when he couldn't figure her out, so lets not get all full of ourselves and think we are going to conclude this on a talk page, it was obviously written with the concept of not being fully understood by humans in mind and as it was written by humans.... well. : ) Jaf 22:55, 13 Oct 2005 (UTC)Jaf

That almost sounds like a fundie christian argument ;) The Borg are not gods and if they could communicate across time then the ST universe has a serious problem. Yes, I have been considering the one-mind:many-bodies view all along. This is consistent with a Queen as type of Borg approach and is exactly the point that I'm trying to make. Major Pita 23:04, 13 Oct 2005 (UTC)

(re:Slamlander) If the Borg Queen is merely a representation of the whole collective, as was implied in FC, then there isn't any necessity for one Queen per *hub or *matrix or *whatever, or a second Queen while the first one is timetravelling or incinerating in orbit around Sol III... -- Cid Highwind 23:11, 13 Oct 2005 (UTC)

I have a problem with the implications in FC. It is the only tape I have that isn't in the original English. It's in French and I'm not sure that I trust the translator, especially with American directors watching over them (What defines an American? ans: Those who only speak one language <grin>). So, I can't check the Premiere Contact very well (dubbed movies suxors! Original voicetrack with subtitles is much better). Major Pita 23:20, 13 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you should try to find a version that you can check, in that case? It would make this discussion so much easier... -- Cid Highwind 14:06, 14 Oct 2005 (UTC)

I just reviewed my version of FC. There are some surprising revelations that I missed the last few times I watched it. Suffice it to say, we are both wrong. I am going to stay my consensus call. As stated earlier, I only have First Contact in French. However, language subtelties are not going to be an issue. The evidence is quite clear, Borg cannot operate without a Queen, period. In FC, all the Borg Drones collapsed and/or ceased to function the moment the Borg Queen died. While this does not have much supporting dialog, it is absolutely clear from watching the film and is the main reason that Picard survived and why they were able to regain control of the Enterprise ... it is absolutely clear Drones cannot function, as Borg, without a Queen closely linked and online!

There was a Queen on the Borg vessel that went into the past. Even transwarp communications do not cross time. Therefore, the Borg (of 2073) were cut off from their Queen while she was out of the timeline. They continued to function because they already had another Queen online. In the time period that they arrived (2063), that Queen was the only Queen in communications distance. This is why she told Data I am the Borg, normally it's We are the Borg. Had there been another Queen online, I suspect that it would have been "we".

Now I agree that there is still more research that needs to be done here. There are exactly two documented instances of long-time Borg Drones being removed from the Collective, one is Seven of Nine and the other is Hugh. Picard's de-borgifacation isn't documented. I am looking into those for more clues. If it is indeed substantiated that Drones are dependent on Queens then we definitely have a strong argument against there being only a single Queen.

At the moment, the evidence seems to support the idea that there are many Queens operating in a matrix otherwise the Borg would have become seriously dysfunctional after First Contact yet five years later in Endgame they appeared altogether too healthy. Major Pita 07:34, 16 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Well, hate to burst your bubble, but... In the Enterprise episode Regeneration the Borg that are revived in the past after having been frozen in the Arctic Circle were perfectly capable of functioning and even assimilating individuals and they were certainly not in contact with the Queen. The Borg who died immediately after the Queen died in FC could just have easily died not because they couldn't live without her but because of some feedback, etc from being so close to her when she died. But especially given the evidence from Regeneration, I don't think your speculation for multiple Queens based on their quick deaths holds up.

Moreover, the idea that the Borg would become dysfunctional after FC without "multiple" Queens is not substantially more supported than the notion that as soon as one Queen dies, she is replaced by another. Just as in an insect colony. If the Queen in FC, or in Endgame for that matter, were replaced nearly immediately by another drone that was elevated or created as a Queen at the instant of her death, there would be no need for multiple Queens active at the same time.

Basically what it comes down to is that we've only seen or heard of one queen at a time, anything else is speculation. Ambiguity is still called for, not a definite "there is only one" nor a definite "nexus of Queens". Logan 5 02:54, 17 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Now you have me at a disadvantage as I must confess that have never seen an Enterprise episode nor do I have any tapes or DVDs. :( Major Pita 11:57, 17 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Consensus call

I submit that we are at a form of impass. Equally, I think that there is no more evidence supporting a single Borg Queen than there is evidence supporting more than one Borg Queen. Rather than imply either one, I suggest that the article be corrected to either clearly state the ambiguity or that Starfleet Intelligence report on the various possibilities. In either case, the current article should not stand as-is. Major Pita 06:36, 14 Oct 2005 (UTC)