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Revision as of 16:17, June 24, 2007 by 70.20.41.234 (Talk)

Appearance Change

How come the Borg look different in TNG and Voyager? - Tim, 24 June, 2007 http://gmms.lafourche.k12.la.us/Rousse/sttng168.gif

http://www.douglasavenue.com/bloggpx/borg.jpg

Species

We have a list of a few species that were members of the 'The New Cooperative', a few of which are built from reference, ie; the Farn and the Parein. And we have a section of Borg that makes a "List of Species seen as Borg Drones". We also have a page for Borg species designations. I propose we better organize this, perhaps a page or Borg article section with all species known to have been assimilated, built out of both sightings and references and there we place a link to Borg species designations as well. Jaf 05:21, 14 Aug 2005 (UTC)Jaf

    • Borg species might be a good name for this. Jaf 18:25, 17 Sep 2005 (UTC)Jaf

Compliments

"The Borg have no culture. Their sole purpose is the assimilation of other beings. To them, art, music, leisure, all are irrelevant."

I love this sentence. Very dramatic! -- Redge 12:15, 28 Jun 2004 (CEST)

This is a perfect sentence.– Enterprise E 23:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Sector 001 link

We really have to make up a name for the battle in Star Trek: First Contact, because a lot of articles link, or should link to it. I have titled the link "Battle of Sector 001". Does that sound about right? -- Redge 16:52, 26 Jun 2004 (CEST)

I see I wasn't the first to create a link to that page. Never mind what I said. Who would like to make a first pass at creating the page? -- Redge 16:57, 26 Jun 2004 (CEST)

Battle of Sector 001 sounds good. It is interesting that it was never stated in the episodes of DS9 following the borg attack. It was stated in Inferon Light as "the latest borg threat".– Enterprise E 13:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Just as a note, this is a 2 year old conversation that has already been resolved. ;) - Adm. Enzo Aquarius...I'm listening 14:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Images

Why don't we have the Borg's symbol. Isn't it a large red hand?

I'll implement it rightaway, however not here, but on Borg Collective --BlueMars 22:38, Jun 30, 2004 (CEST)

In line with the image policy of three images per page, why don't we move the Borg Queen's picture to the Borg Queen's page. Two birds and all that...

I don't know what your policies are with regard to images. But if the Borg have a symbol, I think it should be in this article. I definitely think a cube ship image should be included; the Borg cube is among the most recognized symbols by normal Trek fans (as opposed to Trekkies). I also think, instead of having two unremarkable, closeup headshots of Borg soldiers, you should instead feature a full-body image of a Bord, to show the cybernetics and such. Just my two cents...

Borg in Delta Quadrant

Under the "The Borg in the Delta Quadrant" heading, it says "Insert text here.". Shouldn't that entire section be edited out until it's writen? I sort disrupts the continuity of the page. --Mutt 10:20, Jul 17, 2004 (CEST)

Catchphrase

When the Borg introduce themselves to new species, they say "Existence as you know it is over", not "Lower your shields and surrender your ships"; that is from First Contact. This was stated on the alien culture page on startrek.com before they reformatted the site.-B-101

If you can find a canon reference for this, it'll be okay, but if this was only mentioned on startrek.com, the phrase used in First Contact would be better. I doubt this line was used in the series as it sounds very melodramatic. -- Redge | Talk 23:01, 20 Aug 2004 (CEST)


Okay, in the original TNG episode they used the melodramatic phrase. However, in ST:FC they used "We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. Your biological and technological distinctivness will be added to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile." In some form of another they've used similar wording along VOY. It is possible that the Borg adapt their catchphrase to the situation (for example: Voyager is ship, not ships)

In ST:FC it actually was "We are the borg. Lower you shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctivness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile." Scorpien part 2 was the episode where the borg sayed (SHIPS) when voyager is one ship. – Enterprise E 13:09, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Origins - Canon?

Although the updated origins section is interesting, I don't believe it's canon (as defined by Memory Alpha policy). If so, please add refs.LordJuss 13:08, 26 Nov 2004 (CET)

It's not, and I'm sure we already removed that story before. As such, Ireverted that edit - Datalore, please don't add non-canon information. Thanks. -- Cid Highwind 13:25, 26 Nov 2004 (CET)
I thought that it changed from episode to episode, depending on writer's needs (which is exactly why the Borg name never showed up in "Regeneration"). --208.59.175.78 18:01, 22 Mar 2005 (EST)Lenonn

Borg Flash site

What is the use of this? (see history) A Featured Article shoudn't be the place to have advertisements for private homepages. IF this flash-site is worth adding, there should be a paragraph like "external links", or am I wrong? -- Florian K 16:34, 17 Jan 2005 (CET)

I'm pretty sure that the Borg logo was seen prior to "Descent, Part I" in "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II" as a label on the side of one of the bulkheads on the Borg ship... anyway, the emblem had to have existed prior to 1993 in order for it to be included with the Borg action figure in 1992. ;) -- SmokeDetector47 17:06, 2005 Jan 19 (CET)

Yes, that's what I had in mind as well - if I remember correctly, you can see it in the scene where Locutus is watching the "antimatter firework". Someone should check the tape/DVD - I don't have that episode available at the moment. -- Cid Highwind 18:50, 2005 Jan 19 (CET)
Well, to be fair it could have existed first as a graphic -- remember these things are created by the studio for marketing purposes also. Gene Roddenberry's Lincoln Enterprises created the Vulcan IDIC symbol before TOS Season 3, and then as an afterthought, found an episode to include it in, as a Vulcan symbol. The same could have been true of the Borg symbol -- created by the show's art department, and then shoehorned into the later episode -- if there are no canon contexts of the symbol being used for "real" Borg, the we would have to assume this symbol only applies to the "free Borg" of Hugh/Lore's camp -- this would make more sense anyway. -- Captain Mike K. Bartel 23:38, 19 Jan 2005 (CET)
I took a look at Part I and Part II, and you can see the emblem in the background on various pieces of the ship. Unfortunately, it's not very clear since the lighting isn't that great, but there are clear set pictures in TNG: The Continuing Mission on page 118. -- SmokeDetector47 02:09, 2005 Jan 21 (CET)
Just for reference, the best glimpses occur at 32:37 and 32:52 in BOBWI, Oddly enough, sometimes the logo is shown sideways, with the points of the "claw" facing the right.
Then again, that ship was manned by the rogue Borg led by Lore and not the 'real' Borg. The only thing you know is that previously Hugh return to his ship and chaos broke out. There is no telling that the emblems were already in place, even that this was actually Hughs ship. As far as I am concerned the emblem is that of the rogue Borg and not the real Borg. The only emblems I've seen on a Borg vessel/construct were on the Borg Queen chamber doors. -- Q 20:15, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
--- Actually, it is a symbol used by the Collective, if not perhaps the official logo. I didn't buy it either because I'd never seen it displayed prominently after hearing it was in BOBW, so I went to my recording of that episode and went slow motion through each scene taking place on board the cube in BOBW1 and found that it is visible once in a bulkhead when Picard is being brought to the hangar to speak with the Collective, it's also much more unambiguously and much more numerously visible when Shelby, Riker, Data, and Crusher go to rescue Picard and bring the cube out of warp. It can be seen numerous times during the destruction of the distribution nodes and when the drones are emerging from their alcoves it can be seen printed on various surfaces. Have not checked BOBW2, but can say with absolute certainty that it is there in BOBW1 if you look for it. Proof positive it was at least utilised for some unknown reason by the Collective.
-edit: watched Q Who today for the first time in years: the Borg emblem is present in this episode as well. It can be seen in only one location, though it is placed very prominently when one knows to look for it. Moments before entering the Borg nursery (the place full of maturation chambers), when they pass by the last alcove, it can be clearly seen printed across the edge of the alcove; the camera pans right over it such that it fills a significant per centage of the screen for a moment. However, like the instances of BOBW, it is dark printed upon dark, and is easy to ignore on a first viewing. ---
Yep, it's seen in "Q Who" for the first time, just like Borg writing, red on a black background. Two adjoining Borg logos can be seen in the nursery scene, as was mentioned before, though they are oriented vertically. They can be seen when the away team enters the nursery and also very clear when Data scans the bulkhead with a tricorder and realizes that the ship is regenerating. The logo was then seen in "The Best of Both Worlds" and "Part II", sometimes oriented horizontally. It was not seen in "I, Borg" and turned up again in "Descent, Part I" and Part II", turned upside down for all appearances in these two episodes, maybe a characteristic of the renegade Borg. It was also seen on large banners in these two episodes, coloured white, red and black. After that appearance, the logo never appeared on board of a Borg vessel again, not in Star Trek: First Contact and also not in any Borg-related VOY episode. It was just seen one more time, as a tiny Borg logo on a viewscreen aboard Voyager's sickbay in "Unimatrix Zero". --Jörg 15:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Is this emblem upside down? In Descent the banners in the Borg building show it the other way up.

Borg Origins

Should we add this paragraph to the section dealing with Origins?

It has been suggested in William Shatner's novel The Return that the Borg originated from the melding of Commander Willard Decker and the V'Ger in the form of Ilia. Shatner suggests that, when the two disappeared into a trans-temporal conduit, they were returned the homeworld of V'Ger over 1,000 years ago in the past. There is, however, no canon evidence to support this claim.

Ottens 20:31, 28 Jan 2005 (CET)

Might save us the trouble of having to correct for people who add it in every other week. I suggest sticking it in there, keep it indented, italicized, and clearly non-canon. Tyrant 20:34, 28 Jan 2005 (CET)Tytant

Most certainly not, since Shatner does not say this at all. All the book does is link V'Ger with the Borg - the black hole that Voyager VI falls into is a transwarp conduit, and the machine planet was the Borg homeworld. There is no mention made of a temporal shift or that the ascended Decker-V'Ger being founded the Borg, that is all fan speculation - so the paragraph is incorrect. -- Michael Warren | Talk 20:42, Jan 28, 2005 (CET)
Then it shouldn't be included indeed. Ottens 20:44, 28 Jan 2005 (CET)

Perhaps what the book does say, whatever that might be, could be added as suggested? I don't really have a position on this one way of the other at this point, heh, however, it seems the logical conclution to this line of reasoning. Tyrant 20:46, 28 Jan 2005 (CET)Tyrant

It is possible that the Borg are originated in many ways: the Borg are created by the first species which would later had been assimilated, the Borg are created by the extragalactic Combine in purpose of assimilation, or from the Unicomplex itself? Bryansee 20:50, 26 Aug 2005 Bryansee

Hello, all--the Borg logo was actually first seen in "Q Who" while they are in the maturation room after seeing the babies.

Spruced Up

Yeah. I added the Oscar Wilde-ism and the Photo to brighten this dank article up. --Bentbrain 08:37, 27 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Federation knowledge about the Borg

I have a problem with the following -

Thus the Borg incursions continued without the Federation’s knowledge. The largest of these incursions occurred in 2364 when the Borg wiped out a series of Romulan and Federation outposts in Sector 30 and Sector 31 on the borders of the Romulan Neutral Zone. (TNG: "The Neutral Zone")

I don't have the episode itself but I checked the script and found no reference to the Borg whatsoever. Can someone check this by watching the episode ? (I don't remember it ever being said in the episode that the Borg were responsable) -- Q 18:42, 10 Dec 2005 (UTC)

I also read the script not too long ago and no mention (or real hint) of the Borg is given. I seem to recall a number of years ago when I still had a working copy of the Encyclopaedia (98 ver.) though, that the Borg were credited with these attacks, despite the fact that it wasn't known at the time. Presumably this is revealed in a later episode (Perhaps BOBW-I), but I'm afraid I don't recall that, so either the Borg are said onscreen to have been responsible for it or this was just one of numerous extrapolations by the Okudas shown in the Ency, perhaps because these devastating attacks were never attributed to anyone else we heard of during TNG. If it's the former then it warrants inclusion, and if it's the latter it may just have developed into a mass fan assumption, similar to semi-canon data shown in Technical manuals. - Hayter 23:43, 28 Dec 2005 (UTC)
Actually, although it is not stated that the attacks were the work of the Borg in "The Neutral Zone", there is a line in "Q Who" saying that the pattern of the attacks is identical to the remains of the a civilization attacked in Borg space. TNG lover
You're right. I already changed this in the Borg history article. -- Q 13:23, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Real-world development of the idea of the Borg

The episode The Best of Both Worlds (TNG episode) is in two episodes, and there is an end-of-seasons border between them. In the first part, the Borg multiply by cloning themselves, not by assimilating other races, and the implants are implanted by surgery; they raid planets and take their technology. But they capture Picard and as a one-off they put Borg-type implants in him, to control him; but his flesh anatomy remains human. But seeing him with the implants causes an Enterprise crewman to say "They've turned him into a Borg".
During the gap between seasons, it is likely that a script writer remembered this remark and developed it into the idea of biological assimilation to Borg. And, in the second part, when Picard was rescued, it was noticed that he was being assimilated biologically to Borg, very slowly, spreading from the implants, and this process stopped when the implants were removed by surgery. The classical idea of fast assimilation to Borg developed after (in real world time) that.

I removed the above info because it seems to be speculatory background information and somewhat nitpicky, the latter of which is not allowed as per a Ten Forward conversation. --From Andoria with Love 18:04, 15 Dec 2005 (UTC)

I think the exact same edit was made to the Wikipedia Borg page a while ago before I reverted that. Aside from the speculation regarding the writers (and surely the dual-episode was written at one time rather than with a large gap following the filming of part 1), I don't recall it ever being said that the Borg's only/primary method of multiplication was cloning. It has been a while since I saw Q, Who though so I could be wrong. - Hayter 23:47, 28 Dec 2005 (UTC)
The best of Both Worlds Part Two was indeed written quite a while after Part One. Tiberius 04:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
They were both written by Michael Piller, though. Funny, eh? The story is told in the supplemental DVD material on the last Season 3 disc. Piller didn't expect to be back for Season 4 so he wrote BOBW 1 without figuring out how the crisis would be resolved by some other writer later. Well, he got invited back and was like "Oh, man, now what do I do?" 68.124.136.195 02:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
In Q Who they don't mention cloning, but they visit what Riker calls "the Borg nursery" containing maturation chambers with infants with implants, though the implants are not as extensive as those in adult drones. Riker speculates that Borg are born biological and are immediately implanted with technology. The crewmember who remarks on Picard becoming a Borg in BOBW1 is Worf: Data informs Riker "The Captain has been altered by the Borg.", Riker querries "Altered...?", to which Worf replies "He is a Borg!". It is never stated that the Borg clone until Voyager (I believe), but we certainly do know from Q Who alone that they reproduce themselves biologically. Only in Voyager do we see their drones being grown ectogenically (outside the biological womb) and with implants already present. It was probably the greater emphasis on Borg nanotechnology featured in Voyager that made the idea of prenatal implants possible. I believe the only Borg nanotechnology reference in TNG was Crusher's mention that the Borg would transform the Federation into nanites, and indirectly in the fact that Borg ship repair as witnessed in Q Who could only be physically possible with mature nanotechnology. As for the development of assimilation, that was almost certainly an idea running through the production of both BOBW episodes - the very point of Picard's transformation in Locutus of Borg was that, as the Borg themselves stated directly to him, they wanted to improve themselves biologically as well as technologically and that in order to ease the resistance of Federation citizens against joining into the Collective, they required a recognisable mouthpiece to represent them during the introduction of the Collective into Federation society.

Michael Eddington's Federation/Borg comparison

I always liked Michael Eddington's comparison between the Federation and the Borg in "For the Cause". Could it be added here? Ben Sisko 22:25, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

That was a truly remarkable comparison and the only reason why I enjoyed his character.– Enterprise E 13:02, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Appearances

In VOY:"One", some borg drones and the inside of a borg cube appears as a hallucination by Seven of Nine. Should this count as a apperance?--Unknown

Yes, I believe so.--MatthewFenton 23:10, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Make it So.

Yes they should.– Enterprise E 13:00, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

w00t

You have no chance to survive make your time. All your base are belong to us! MOVE EVERY ZIG! (I'm sorry, but any mention of the Borg and "resistance is futile" makes me think of bad Japanese video games. LOL) 204.52.215.107 21:16, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Um... ok. Well, talk pages are not meant to be used as recollections of past gaming experiences or for any kind of idle chit-chat. They are to only be used for the purposes of discussing the content of the article. Please remember this in the future. Thank you. --From Andoria with Love 04:40, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Borg History

At the moment I am busy rewriting the Borgs history that is present in this article but I also found a seperate history article about them. Both articles generaly seem to contain about the same information but are written differently. Is there any reason that there are seperate history articles and a history part within the main article ? I also noticed this in other species. Has it something to do with the article size ? Its confusing for me to put what where. Any thoughts ? -- Q 12:06, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

  • I've moved the info to Borg history, tho it may still need a canon check and some rewriting. I've also moved some other repeticious sections, this article is getting skinny as a result. Jaf 15:32, 17 April 2006 (UTC)Jaf
    • I think the culture section of this article can be split up and moved to Borg Collective, Hive mind and Borg philosophy. I also feel the Borg starship information should be on it's own page about Borg starships, I was going to move it to Borg starship classes, but that's not the norm with starship class articles. This is an interesting occurrence for a species article, it has almost become a disambig. Jaf 16:13, 17 April 2006 (UTC)Jaf
  • Why all the split ups ? If I look at other species pages, history, physiology etc... are on the main page. As far as I am concerned every species should have a central page from which a reader can explore that species. Granted, not all information about physiology for example should be on the main page but a few explanatory paragraphs about the species should. So the reader gets a general overview. Despite this will cause some overlap with articles which will go indepth about the subject. As you said only links will get this article skinny. I assume that is not what species articles are all about. Displayin a disambiguation page when someone searches for 'Borg' seems rather silly. -- Q 18:18, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
    • I found that I had to go to more then one place to get info on the same thing and I was often reading the same information twice as a result. I didn't see any need for it. Jaf 22:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)Jaf
      • I agree with Q that the main article for an information-rich species like the Borg should have some teaser paragraphs summarizing the key points of applicable sections like technology or culture and then link to the main article for that specific topic on the species. This appears to be common practice for other species on topics like history and technology (see: Human, Vulcan). - Intricated 00:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
        • I'll take practical over pretty, we need not be repetitious. Jaf 00:31, 18 April 2006 (UTC)Jaf

quotes

the quotes in the middle of this article see really out of place.

Release of Star Trek Legacy

With the release of this game, they seem to have a little story about the origins of the borg..

Star Trek: Legacy, like all Trek games, is not canon. --OuroborosCobra talk 01:07, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Star trek can't be known buy a game no matter what it is about. Some things are correct but Star Trek Legacy is a game based on no proof of past ships. The borg are just the perfect example of the unknown.– Enterprise E 23:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Problems

I think this page has major problems. First, there are numerous unsupported assertions throughout, for example the History and Spacecraft sections. Also, there are sweeping statements that are (in addition to being poorly-worded in my opinion) simply too broad and have no citation or support. For example, in the History section: "The Borg always have and probably will continue to assimilate species they consider worthy into their Collective. Not only have the Borg assimilated starships, but entire planets they encounter. After an assessment of the target's tactical strengths and weaknesses, and their worthiness of inclusion into the Borg Collective, the assimilation process begins." Where is the support for this? This article needs SERIOUS work, especially for something as important to the canon as the Borg.

-Lt. Cmdr. B. Sutherland

The only problem I have with what you quoted is the speculative "always have and probably will continue". All the rest of it is pretty much straight from the Borgs' own onscreen collective mouths.

Differences

Has anyone ever written, or seen an article written, regarding why the Borg look "white" between 2365 and 2370, compared to their "corpse grey-green" look prior and since? [User: Stripey].

All to do with the amount of vegetables they eat. They're into the later stages of scurvy now. But as a proper answer... no. Never seen anything, my guess is simply that the makeup changed, along with the filming quality. -- Sulfur 21:39, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
to say nothing of the spandex of the same era which yielded later to armor.

Borg-inspired?

I think it might be appropriate to have a section detailing all the fictional entities outside of the Star Trek universe that were no doubt inspired by the ideas the Borg presented (assimilation of outside advantages, hive-minded unification)...there are too many to count...the Zerg stand out, but there are many others (the Slivers from Magic, the Tyranid from Warhammer 40k, the Strogg from Quake)

We would need actual proof rather than speculation. For example the Zerg and pretty much all of StarCraft is known to have been inspired by Warhammer 40K (Zerg being inspired by the Tyranids). Warhammer 40K (including the Tyranids) first came out in 1987, two years before "Q Who" and the Borg first aired. Therefore, they could not have been inspired by the Borg. --OuroborosCobra talk 03:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


V'Ger as the Borg Origin

I kind of like that idea. Ilia does seem to resemble the Borg Queen, in some way. then again, 1000s of years do take a toll on you.

Baby Borgs

Since the Borg added lifeforms to their Collective via assimilation, there was no need for procreation, although they apparently did so nevertheless, as evidenced by the neonatal drones discovered by Federation crewmembers and the fact that the Borg had access to extremely sophisticated abiogenic reproductive techniques. (TNG: "Q Who"; VOY: "Drone") No differentiation was made between children and adults when assimilating a race. (VOY: "Collective") Unlike non-Borg species, these youths did not need to go to school to obtain knowledge. The moment they joined the Collective they could access its entire memory. However, when they were too young they were placed in maturation chambers where they remained for up to seventeen cycles before they would serve the Borg Collective. (VOY: "Year of Hell")


The "evidence" given here for the Borg's procreation seems to be that the Enterprise found a nursery aboard the cube in "Q Who." Given what we now know about the Borg, though, it's entirely possible that the infants in this nursery were recently captured in an assimilation mission. (We know the Borg assimilate infants from "Collective") There is little cause to speculate that they were the result of sexual reproduction among drones. The Borg no doubt could create a fetus through any number of means, but Seven of Nine plainly states in "Drone" that (as of 2375) they do not.

I assume the "seventeen cycles" figure is based on a reference to Seven's experience in a maturation chamber. I don't think that can be used to make a generalization about the length of time all juvenile drones spend in maturation chambers. This almost certainly varies according to the age of the assimilated child and its species. --Jimsmith 01:34, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Borg queen Wolf 359

From the Article:'The Borg Queen (Star Trek: First Contact) also later claimed to be present at the Battle of Wolf 359, despite the fact that she acknowledged the destruction of that ship and all the Borg on it.'

The borg queen is present at all the battles and events, all the minds in the borg hive are one, so no matter how far away she was physically, she was there anyway.

She claimed to physically be there. We even saw her in the flashbacks with Picard. In this case, the hive mind thing doesn't fly. Besides, just because she has a mental link with her drones, it does not make her "there", no more than I am in New Jersey if I call my grandparents on the phone while I sit here in Massachusetts. --OuroborosCobra talk 04:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
It's a cryptic reference, although regarding her 'explanation' in telling Picard that he has become small and thinks three dimensionally, while I personally find it apocryphal that she was referring to anything to do with hyperspace or time travel, I personally find it much more plausible, given the context of the conversation and Picard's chain of reasoning (to which she clearly objects and makes mocking reflection), that she is referring to his stunted (relative to Borg standards) capacity for lateral thought. It would seem to me that she is not speaking literally in a physical sense, but rather literally in a cognitive sense, that she is telling Picard he has lost the ability to see the obviousness (of what, this too is unclear). I would have to concur with the omnipresence hypothesis - the queen is always there, she "is the Collective" according to her own admission. Picard's recollection of her being "physically" there is no more valid in an positionally massive sense than would be his recollection of hearing her "voice" in his head. The voices of the Collective do not exist as sound waves travelling through the air and entering a drone's "ear", but they do exist as subspace signals. The queen may not have been physically "there" any more than the voices of the Collective carry through the air as a sequence of kinetic waves travelling through a gas, but this in no way stops Picard from remembering her there. As to the question of whether you are "there" in New Jersey (or anywhere, this is all hypothetical) during a telephone call, it's not as black and white as that. There is serious philosophical research regarding these very issues (if you give everybody in China a computer and put them all on a radio network and program all the computers to act like brain cells, does China become a conscious entity?) -- plus, the queen never claims to have been "physically" there, Picard implies it and the queen goes on as I've said before, telling him that he has become small and three-dimensional in his thinking.
That is all speculation, though. The facts are that we SEE her in a flashback, and the dialogue from Picard specifically states "you were on that ship", it does not leave room for the metaphysical. --OuroborosCobra talk 12:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

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