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Where From?

A few questions: (1) Where does the description of the Beta Quadrant come from? What is the source? (2) The USS Olympia was sent to explore the Beta Quadrant for 7 years. The nearest starbase to System J25 was two years away at maximum warp (as I recall). Both these indicate a limited Federation presence. How is it, then that the article claims that the Beta Quadrant is "dominated" by the UFP, the Romulans, and the Klingons? (3) The speculation on Ledosian and Nygean space should be confined to a background article. (4) I would like to understand the claim that "Powers in the Beta Quadrant are often informally referred to as being part of the Alpha Quadrant." What is this based on? (5) What is the source of the claim that "Both the Mutara Nebula and the Genesis Planet are located in the Beta Quadrant"? I would appreciate anyone who can address these as I am not yet convinced these claims are supportable. Thanks! Aholland 04:31, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

So far as I can recall, almost all information on the Beta Quadrant in Star Trek has been derived from throwaway references to people, places, and things being "the only x in the quadrant," e.g. establishing the Enterprise as the only Federation ship in the quadrant as a plot device for Star Trek II. Such statements can be used to infer that the Federation spans at least two quadrants, leading to further inference that at least some of its larger neighbors are in one or the other. The problem is that such references are dubious to begin with--it's absurd to think that Starfleet had exactly one ship in either the Alpha or Beta Quadrant during Star Trek II, unless one accepts that "quadrant" was an ill-defined term at that point in the franchise's development.
Deep Space Nine presents an overwhelming number of references to the Federation, Cardassians, Romulans, and Klingons all being "Alpha Quadrant powers," and I don't see why the use of this term cannot be taken at face value. Although it's not a stretch to assume this is shorthand for "Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers," that assumption is based on the speculation that some of those governments are mostly located outside the Alpha Quadrant, which in turn is based on the speculation that the Federation sits right in the middle of Alpha and Beta. If there are sources for this speculation, I'd love to see them in this article, but otherwise I'm inclined to accept DS9's premise that everything's happening over in the Alpha Quadrant.--Jimsmith 10:53, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
The 4 Quadrants seems to be a 24th century designation, because there are other "quadrants" before the introduction of this terms (in TOS and in the beginning of TNG). Maybe Romulans and Klingons have territories in the Alpha Quadrant (which would explain their raid on Cardassia). Otherwise, the wormhole is maybe located in proximity of the beta Quadrant and the term "Alpha Quadrant powers" could be used for simplicity as the wormhole ends in the Alpha Quadrant (Dominion may also have territories in the Delta Quadrant). - Philoust123 12:38, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
This is circular logic: We know the Romulans and Klingons can be (mostly) in the Beta Quadrant because "Alpha Quadrant" is shorthand for "Alpha and Beta Quadrant"; and we know "Alpha Quadrant" must be just shorthand because the Romulans and Klingons are (mostly) in the Beta Quadrant.
Which brings us back to the original point. What episode establishes that any of the Big Four have any territory in the Beta Quadrant in the first place? --Jimsmith 20:19, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

There is no such episode; I've checked.  :) (But I welcome anyone to point out where I made an error on that!) The article as written is misleading and erroneous and should be overhauled completely to only state what is known about the mysterious Beta Quadrant. (Which ain't much.) Aholland 21:16, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Just glancing at the article I'd say the points that need to be addressed are as follows...
  • Earth, the Murata Nebula, and the Genesis Planet are all at least partially in the Beta Quadrant. I'm assuming this comes from the Enterprise being "the only ship in the quadrant" while stationed at Earth in Star Trek II. This would not be sufficient, given the dual meaning of quadrant as described in the Stellar cartography article.
  • The Federation, Klingon Empire, and Romulan Empire dominate the Beta Quadrant. It's yet to be established that those powers are even in the Beta Quadrant, let alone that they dominate there.
  • Powers in Alpha/Beta are informally referred to as being in Alpha. If there are no (known) Beta Quadrant powers, this premise becomes meaningless.
  • System J25 is in the Beta Quadrant. I'm not sure why this assumption is being made, except to put J25 as close to Borg space as possible. However, it's entirely possible that the Borg ship encountered at J25 was on a long-range mission, sending it far from its own territory. For all we know J25 is in a part of the Alpha Quadrant that's two years beyond Federation space.
I'd be willing to make the necessary edits myself, but I'm fairly new here and wouldn't want to risk violating any local netiquette (assuming I haven't already). And I'm still open to the possibility that there are sources for all of these things, even though no one has come up with any. --Jimsmith 04:44, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
We should think that Khitomer was not in the Beta Quadrant, since in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, Sulu says "We're in Beta Quadrant" when explaining how far away he is. -- Captain M.K.B. 05:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
He said he was in Beta Quadrant at the beginning of the Movie, but by the end of the Movie 2 months later he said, "We are now in Alpha Quadrant" and suggested it was some ways away from Khitomer --TOSrules 05:33, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, now we're getting somewhere. ;) The USS Excelsior article suggests that the planets Sulu was investigating were outside the Federation, which would not prove or disprove that the Federation has any authority in the Beta Quadrant. That Excelsior was buffeted by the Praxis shockwave suggests Praxis and Qo'noS are in or at least near the Beta Quadrant. --Jimsmith 08:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Found it. The source for all this confusion is that otherwise rather authoritative book the Star Trek Encyclopedia. Under the entry for "Beta Quadrant" it says it is the region "in which the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire are located." It goes on to say that "parts" of the UFP spill over into it. Star Trek VI (in which all Sulu says in his log entry is "After three years I've concluded my first assignment as master of this vessel cataloguing gaseous planetary anomalies in Beta Quadrant". According again to the Encyclopedia, the script was drafted in accordance with this location of places in mind. Also, the bisecting of the Sol System such that it is on the border between Alpha and Beta comes from the Encyclopedia.
But that's it - the location of Beta and what is in it wasn't otherwise embraced by the writers and Alpha was noted as the home of all the major Trek locations. In my opinion, this is simply Okuda proposing stuff that was never really adopted by the writers or producers. The article should then only note the two (three?) data points we know from the shows what the Beta Quadrant is - the flights of the USS Olympia and the USS Excelsior (and the Yattho?) - and put the rest, including the Encyclopedia guesses, into a Background section. Aholland 13:00, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Okay, here some two screenshots from Voyager episodes that might be helpful for this discussion. Both screenshots were taken from scenes where the maps displayed were moving or zoomed in/out, meaning it was hard to take a clear screenshot that displays everything that is of relevance for this article. I encourage people to review the scenes themselves so that they can see what I mean.
Milky Way Galaxy Quadrants

The four quadrants of the Milky Way

The first screenshot comes from VOY: "Pathfinder". It shows a large LCARS diplay seen in the Pathfinder Project laboratory. The Milky Way Galaxy is depicted here and the location of the four quadrants is indicated, I think this is even the only time that we do not only see the 4 quadrants (aka the Galaxy divided my two lines that meet at a right angle at the center of the galaxy) but also that they identified by name.


Voyager route

The route of the USS Voyager

The second screenshot is from VOY: "Year of Hell". I shows another map of the Milky Way Galaxy, this time in the newly installed Astrometrics lab aboard the USS Voyager. It shows the flight plan of the Voyager back home to Earth, starting in the upper right corner (the short orange part of the line is the part of the way home the Voyager has already covered in the previous 3 years) and terminating in the lower left part of the galaxy depiction. Now, you can see that the galaxy is devided into four parts, the four quadrants. This is a little hard to see on this screenshot, as the lines, that represent the borders between the four quadrants are rather thin at this part of the presentation (as the main focus is the route home), just look at the scene and you will see that the lines are clearer in the seconds preceding the addition of the Voyager's flightplan home.
As can be seen (and again, please do not only judge by this screencap but watch the whole scene) the journey of the USS Voyager starts in the Delta Quadrant, actually pretty close to the border of the Gamma Quadrant. From there it goes "down" meaning towards Earth, not going straight through the galactic core but avoiding it (this is my speculation: because of the black hole at the center of the galaxy or because of the enormous number of suns around the core region). The Voyager will traverse the Delta Quadrant and then "enter" the Beta Quadrant (its location in relation to the Gamma Quadrant evidenced on the first screenshot).
The line terminates at planet Earth, which, as can be seen, lies on the intersect deviding the Alpha Quadrant and Beta Quadrant. (on the screenshot, the pink line has not come to its final destination, Earth, but the camera zooms in making a screenshot from this scene very fuzzy and unclear, this, again, can be better observed by watching the actual scene.)

I'll look out for further maps of the galaxy, seen on screen, that might be useful here, this is just my two cents for the moment. --Jörg 14:24, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Small update:
Borg transwarp network

map from "Endgame"

I just realized that the map of the Galaxy seen in VOY: "Endgame" also features the names of the four quadrants. The small rectangle with the blue spider-web-like lines emanating (in the Gamma Quadrant, close to the border to the Beta Quadrant) shows the nebula with the transwarp hub inside, which is also the location of the USS Voyager at the time of "Endgame" (which, by the way, also makes clear that they haven't entered the Beta Quadrant yet). --Jörg 14:51, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, so now we know the Star Trek Encyclopedia is the source for the Klingons, Romulans, and Earth being partly in the Beta Quadrant. The question is whether the Encyclopedia can be treated as canon, or if it takes a back seat to DS9 exclusively placing "our neighborhood" in the Alpha Quadrant. Obviously these premises can be (and have been) reconciled by the "Alpha is short for Alpha and Beta" fanon. But is it really necessary to reconcile an actual episode with a book? If (hypothetically) the Encyclopedia said Picard was born in 2315 and an episode of TNG said he was born in 2303, would we split the difference or just accept the show as the definitive source?

Regarding Star Trek VI it would be helpful to pin down whether the planets Sulu has been exploring were inside claimed Federation space or not. I personally haven't seen Star Trek VI lately, but as I noted earlier, the article for the USS Excelsior says they're returning from the mission to Federation space, implying that the mission was outside the Federation's borders. It's possible the Excelsior article is being inexact, since the distinction is only relevant to describing the Beta Quadrant, not the Excelsior. In any event, Star Trek VI doesn't confirm or deny that the Federation has a political presence in the Beta Quadrant, only that they can send exploratory missions to parts of the quadrant without getting shot at.

Jörg's screenshots are enlightening, although the one depicting Voyager's route features several different partitions, so I'm not sure which ones represent the four quadrants. It does appear that Ocampa, the galactic core, and Earth form a virtually straight line bisecting the entire galaxy. Assuming Earth is indeed on or near the Alpha-Beta boundary, this would put Ocampa near the Gamma-Delta boundary. Which raises a fascinating (if irrelevant) question: If they were that close to the Gamma Quadrant, why didn't Voyager just set a course for the Idran system and use the Bajoran wormhole to shorten their trip? --Jimsmith 22:14, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Jörg's research is great; I will have to take his advice and review the actual episodes. But to answer Jimsmith, the Encyclopedia is not canon on Memory Alpha. It is a "Restricted Validity Resource" that takes a back seat to all episode information. (But see the content and resource policies for more detail.) Aholland 01:40, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I've taken a look at the scenes that Jörg pointed out.
  • Starting with the one from "Pathfinder", we can see clearly that there are four quadrants - Alpha, Beta, Delta, Gamma - and their relation to each other. Neither Earth nor the Federation are located on the map.
  • In "Year of Hell", we can see the galaxy cut into four sections, but they are not labelled in any way. We also do not know if the "starting point" is Ocampa or where Voyager is when the episode takes place. However, given the point shown, it would be unlikely to be anything other than the Ocampa - it is too near the edge of the galaxy to be Voyager's position after three years of travel. If the primary lines sometimes shown are the divisions of Alpha, Beta, etc., then Earth (the presumed endpoint of the flight plan) would be right on the border of Alpha and Beta.
  • When the map is zoomed in, the position of the Voyager is revealed, it is exactly at the spot where the color of the long thin line turns from orange to pink (just before the ship enters Spatial grid 005)--Jörg 19:23, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
  • In "Endgame" we again see data like from "Pathfinder", but neither Earth nor the UFP are located on the map.
So the only data from the shows themselves we seem to have as to the location of Earth is "Year of Hell". But it is consistent with the Star Trek Encyclopedia and the Star Trek: Star Charts. It would therefore appear that Sol bisects the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.
That being the case, what prevents us from making the claim, as in the Encyclopedia, the Star Charts, and the article (though it would have to be toned down), that the Klingons, Romulans, and parts of the UFP are in the Beta Quadrant? Other than DS9 and the "invasion of the Alpha Quadrant" - which makes sense if Bajor is actually IN the Alpha Quadrant (as shown in the Star Charts).
(And an aside to Jimsmith: Mandel's Star Charts puts Ocampa and Idran in positions that it would actually be either shorter or about equal to simply travel directly to Earth. The graphic in "Year of Hell" is a little ambiguous in that respect, but close enough to probably support it.) Aholland 18:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
One thing that would point towards Romulan space being in the Beta Quadrant, aka to the "right" of Federation space are the maps of the Romulan Neutral Zone that have been shown in several episodes. Beginning with "Balance of Terror" and continued in "The Defector" and "Birthright, Part II", Romulan space was always depicted as being to the right (I know how unscientific that sounds ;-)) of Federation space. This is just a minor bit, but might be interesting to take into consideration.
It is highly unlikely that the course of the Voyager projected by Seven of Nine would lead the ship through Romulan space, so it can be further assumed that Romulan space is to the right of the pink line, somewhere in the Beta Quadrant. --Jörg 19:23, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
As the one who created the Background section and relegated some info there, I should make clear that I accept whatever consensus is reached on this page. I don't pretend to have ever held a copy of the encyclopedia, star charts or chronology, but I'd read some of the initial discussion and was trying to get the ball rolling to see what direction we were taking this. Feel free to edit the article as you see fit... --Vedek Dukat Talk | Duty Roster 18:59, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I like the way you think, but there are two reasons I can think of why Voyager might not have done that: a) they already knew about the Dominion by this time (in fact, in "Parturition" Tom used a holographic simulation of a battle with the Jem'Hadar to teach Kes how to fly a shuttle) and they did not want to run into their space—although, they knew they would have to run into Borg space eventually, so I don't see how it would make any difference, and b) depending on where the Ocampa homeworld is in the Delta Quadrant, and where the Idran system is in the Gamma Quadrant, it may have been longer for them to go that way than it would have been for them to just follow in a straight line back to Earth—especially considering all the boosts they got along the route they did take, which allowed them to traverse over 40,000 light years in only three years.--Antodav 20:24, September 1, 2010 (UTC)

Speculation Removal

I removed the following from the article: "By combining statements given by Admiral Janeway in "Endgame" (VOY) with information that appears in Star Trek: Star Charts by Geoffrey Mandel, It is possible to deduce that the Fen Domar, a species which the USS Voyager encountered in an alternate timeline, are also most likely a Beta Quadrant civilization." The problem is that it uses canon and non-canon to create a highly speculative conclusion. Unless there is something more definitive about the statements cited, which the Star Charts confirm, but not be used as a primary source for, I don't think it belongs in the article. Aholland 12:03, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

a new quadrant map from "Renaissance man"

Galaxy map, Renaissance man

The map

While clicking through the 40 years of Star Trek auction site at Christie's I found one of the items that will be auctioned away is very interesting for this article:

After entering the site, click "Galaxy of Highlights". The first item that comes up is a desktop computer from Janeway's ready room and quarters that features a galaxy map, showing the fictional R'Kaal space. I watched "Renaissance Man" to find the map, and it is seen on screen twice, but no text is legible, as might have been imagined. When The Doctor, "disguised" as Captain Janeway, returns to the ship at the beginning of the episode, he carries a PADD that he hands to Chakotay that features the map. Later the desktop computer with the map is seen, as it is on auction at Christie's, in Janeway's quarters. Well, more proof for the location of the 4 quadrants. :-) --Jörg 19:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Arms of the Galaxy

Voyager flight path Astrometrics

On-screen version of page from "Star Charts"

The following was added today: "The Carina Arm and Norma Arms of the galaxy are located in that quadrant, as is the star NGC 5139. (Background graphic, Star Trek: Voyager)" What episode or episodes was this graphic in? Are the arms named in the graphic (because I don't recall either of them, or the star, being called out - although my memory fades from time to time.) Thanks. Aholland 04:14, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I came across Starship mission status, and I went to thinking about other background displays, and found that the "Star Trek: Star Charts" has a readable version of the starchart shown right, which was seen in every scene in Astrometrics on Voyager. So this is Voyager's version of the Ship Mission Status. - AJ Halliwell 04:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Just a small add-on: This map first appeared in VOY's astrometrics beginning with Season 7, when Geoffrey Mandel, designer of the map, started working on the show. In earlier seasons, the astrometrics viewscreens mostly showed Hubble telescope images. --Jörg 10:07, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
If it is the same graphic (I am not near my Star Charts right now) then that works for me. But let's give an example citation in the article to at least one episode that it is in. Aholland 13:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

real-world updates/info

Guys,

I just came across this whole discussion. Let me pass along some info:

--First off, you can find this latest Voyager galaxy chart reproduced intact and very readable on p. 48 of Communicator #134, from Aug/Sept. 2001. --Secondly, and more basic: the quadrant plan dates back to TNG-3, "The Price," the first time they needed the concept. Mike Okuda did indeed come up with it for the show and the future writers--that was his job. It was included in the Season 4 Writer-Producer's Technical Guide (in-house) put together by Mike and Rick Sternbach, which formed the core of the eventual pro TNG Tech Manual they did for Pocket. The Alpha-Beta line was arbitrarily chosen to be Sol, yes, and to help with the old "only ship in the quadrant" lines. It also reveals some texture about Earth-centric tensions. But it's got precedence: on Earth, look at Greenwich and the whole system for time zones and latitude! It's all based on the arbitrary point of the site of the lab in the empire that happened to consider itself the top dog at the time--and no one has ever changed either system. Stuff happens. That's what gives interesting texture. What is wacky is that Mike didn't make the greek letters either clockwise or counter-clockwise--but that's his later acknowledged goof. All dialogue since then, all graphics done on-lot in the art dept., (sometimes the CGI video done off-lot skewed it a bit, as in the Hirogen network), and Geoff Mandell's charts book I helped with --they all keep the same thing going.

The point is, it was Mike's job to DO that and then try to stay PC in wrangling his bosses in the writer-producer ranks to stick with it, over several generations of turnover and lost continuity memory. They mostly did OK. Yes, the groaner was how the DS9 writers kept referring to the "Alpha Quadrant" powers... only because the wormhole terminus, yes, was in the AQ.

So if it is aired canon you want--as it should be!--Geoff's map in Season 7 Vgr. was intentinally done to finally get that accomplished. We don't have to go to the best in-lieu-of sources, even. But the idea *has* been there since 1989!

Klings and Romulans not in the Beta Quadrant?

Given the dialogue in the Deep Space Nine episodes "In the Pale Moonlight" and "Tears of the Prophets", it would seem the Romulan Star Empire is close to, or has a direct border with, the Cardassian Union, given that their border was crossed by the Dominion to attack Federation targets. It seems nearly impossible for them to be located in the Beta Quadrant given this fact. Even the Klingon Empire is referenced as being in the Beta Quadrant numerous times throughout Memory Alpha, yet it is always referred to as an Alpha Quadrant race. Therefore, should the pages which say the Romulan and Klingon Empires exist in the Beta Quadrants be changed, as there is no canon source that suggests they are? Thot Prad 12:08, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


Update: Even though the "border" for the Alpha and Beta quadrants has shown to be right through the Sol System, has it even been said or shown anywhere in the series that either the Romulan Star Empire or Klingon Empire are in the Beta Quadrant? Again, we know at the very least the Romulan Star Empire borders the Cardassian Union (though the Klingon Empire might not, since its fleet had to go through Federation space to invade the Cardassian Union). So, shouldn't we change it so that Romulus and the Romulan Star Empire are in the Alpha Quadrant? - User:Thot Prad 08:18, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

What's Really Behind All of This

"...the location of Beta and what is in it wasn't otherwise embraced by the writers and Alpha was noted as the home of all the major Trek locations. In my opinion, this is simply Okuda proposing stuff that was never really adopted by the writers or producers. ..."Aholland 13:00, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Despite all of the background evidence, the common perception seems to be that the dividing line to the Beta Quadrant lies off to "the right" of the Federation's border. (It would sound more scientific to call this direction "counter-rotational.") It's kind of disconcerting to find that Vulcan and so many other major Federation locals are actually Beta Quadrant. That seems to go against the whole idea of naming the quadrants in that way. It's easy to accept the Earth-centric "texture" as logical to Star Trek, with Greenwich serving as a good example of a real precedent. (Recall that Sol was made the zero point in the galactic longitude system described in the original Star Fleet Technical Manual.) However, the British didn't make Greenwich the International Dateline: That was put on the other side of the planet! Similarly, it would logically be more probable that the meridian through Sol would be used for the CENTER of the "Alpha" Quadrant.--TheEntities 16:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

How earthcentric these quadrants are!

If indeed the quadrants are based on a line bisecting the Sol system, then the quadrant system is earthcentric. Why should the other species have accepted this? The Klingons could object just as vehemently as the French objected to Greenwich being the prime meridian on Earth. The significance of the line is as if to say that most of North America is in the Earth's Alpha Quadrant, partly in the Gamma, while most of Europe is in the Beta Quadrant and Asia stretches across Beta and Delta, with an enormous ocean straddling the line between the Gamma and Delta quadrants.

It would make more sense if there was some striking, relatively stable, natural phenomenon that just happens to coincidentally lay on a line drawn through Sol from the center of the galaxy. The Crab Nebula seems to be directly opposite the galactic center as seen from Earth... could this striking feature possibly be the true Alpha-Beta division reference point? It would be visible for considerable distances in all directions. Being further out, it would be moving around the galaxy far more slowly and therefore serve as a more stable reference point.

But why should civilizations in the Delta and Gamma Quadrants use this system? Perhaps some of them think of themselves as being in the middle of one quadrant, their "Alpha". Perhaps some of them, like the Founders, didn't much care to define quadrants, but used them in communications with Alpha Quadrant powers as a common point of reference.

I think it would have been logical for the starship Voyager, perhaps as they finished their encounter with the U.S.S. Equinox, reached the Beta Quadrant, a psychological leap in distance. We could postulate that the nearest boundary of friendly space is still two thirds of the way across the Beta Quadrant. Gcapp1959 06:10, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Citation

"Major portions of the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire were located in the Beta Quadrant." It says citation needed. I may be mistaken, but the BG info below ("This information appeared on a display graphic sold on # It's A Wrap! sale and auction") sounds to me like that's meant to be the citation for both lines above. --Golden Monkey 19:21, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

I would like to point out that it also states the Klingons and Romulans being placed in the Beta Quadrant in the Star Trek Online game (this being the most recent info available on the topic) June 1, 2011 Trevor M The preceding unsigned comment was added by 96.52.188.232 (talk).
Oh, we have a wealth of background and apocryphal info that the Klingons and Romulans are in the Beta Quadrant. We were just looking for a citation from canon (and no, STO is not canon).–Cleanse ( talk | contribs ) 01:14, June 3, 2011 (UTC)
I wouldn't mind confirmation that the Star Trek: Insurrection display graphic actually appeared on screen (albeit illegibly).–Cleanse ( talk | contribs ) 01:19, June 3, 2011 (UTC)
Well, we do have the map from "Conspiracy" which clearly shows both the Romulan Star Empire and the Klingon Empire being to the right of Earth (if one looks down on the galaxy).(Throwback 04:03, September 8, 2011 (UTC))
Ok, here's a crazy thought. Those lines that divide the quadrants in the galaxy maps featured higher up on this page are at the very least a hundred light years thick. Which means it's impossible to determine if the line is intended to go through Earth, or Vulcan, or even Romulan or Klingon planets. (and baring that, the conspiracy map is weird in several aspects, for all we know it shows the galaxy "upside down") -- Capricorn 02:49, September 9, 2011 (UTC)

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