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Talk:Alexander Marcus

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Prime reality Edit

Since he was born before the timelines diverged, shouldn't we have a page for the prime version of Alexander Marcus as well? 19:11, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's necessary, since there wouldn't be any information on it different than what is here. 31dot (talk) 19:16, May 17, 2013 (UTC)
Well it looks like someone immediately created Alexander Marcus (prime reality). *Facepalm* --Alientraveller (talk) 19:21, May 17, 2013 (UTC)
We don't know that he was in Starfleet in the prime reality; and as I said above, there won't be any information on here different than what is on the alt reality page, so I question the need for this page. 31dot (talk) 19:24, May 17, 2013 (UTC)
Well, I think that him being the father of a major character like Carol Marcus is enough of a reason to have an article about him in the prime reality. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 19:25, May 17, 2013 (UTC)
We don't need an article that just says "He was the father of Carol Marcus". A blurb in the alt reality article stating that he was born before the timelines diverged would be sufficient, I think. 31dot (talk) 19:27, May 17, 2013 (UTC)
We don't even know when Carol was born and whether Alexander Prime was her father, and though it's likely it's still speculation. --Alientraveller (talk) 19:30, May 17, 2013 (UTC)
He's more than just the father of Carol Marcus (and Carol Marcus), he's the husband of Wallace and the grandfather of David Marcus. I say that's enough for a separate page. - Archduk3 05:00, May 27, 2013 (UTC)
Hmmm, we could also add an apocryphal note that based on the movie app's bio of Pike that he would have also been his mentor in the prime timeline. I'm dubious on renaming this (alternate reality) though given the prime Marcus was not the villain of a blockbuster movie, though we could always have "Alexander Marcus" redirect here and link "Alexander Marcus (prime reality)" at the top. --Alientraveller (talk) 12:29, May 28, 2013 (UTC)
The alternate reality disambiguation doesn't suggest that the prime Marcus is more important than the alt one, only that the standard naming convention is the to disambiguate the alt one. - Archduk3 19:32, May 28, 2013 (UTC)

I think the article should be renamed to the suggested name to avoid confusion with the original David Marcus, to which the character is related. Star Trek Pro (talk) 15:28, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Given that Chekov and alt-Chekov seem to have a different age, Hendorff doesn't look anything like alt-Hendorff (same for several of the alt-Admirals of both movies), etc. we shouldn't be jumping to any conclusions here. Carol Marcus might or might not have the same father as alt-Carol (perhaps Alexander has a twin brother, and prime-Wallace chose the other one?), so we shouldn't add speculation, however likely it might sound to us, to articles. --Cid Highwind (talk) 16:01, June 2, 2013 (UTC)
Occam's razor makes him the father of prime Carol Marcus as well, since that involves the fewest number of assumptions, though it does still involve the one. We do allow "very obvious conclusions" though, provided they are marked as such, and the appearance of an actor is within the tolerance of resources, so that isn't really relevant to determining if they were the suppose to be the same biological person (especially since the filmmakers don't have a time machine which would allow them to cast the same actor in the role). - Archduk3 11:03, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
The same paragraph where the "obvious conclusions" quote is from also tells us that any such conclusion needs to be explicitly marked as such (which will be next to impossible if the speculative conclusion is a whole separate article, which will also be linked to from other articles) and that we don't mind "leaving wide gaps" if we don't know something. So, because zero is less than one, we get the least number of assumptions if we don't create any article, but perhaps link to this one from a background note on Carol Marcus. --Cid Highwind (talk) 11:14, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
I think a bg note explaining the reasoning is enough to satisfy the requirement that the assumption be marked. In this case I would say we do know something, just that there is still room for doubt, albeit not much IMO, and the bg note currently on this page about the prime Carol Marcus would seem to suggest that the consensus already supports that, which is why I suggested this be renamed in the first place. - Archduk3 11:44, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

I've split the page because:

  1. The only remaining, unmitigated, point for not having two pages was it's uncertain if he was the father of prime Carol Marcus, though...
  2. We continued to say he was, which means there was at least a silent consensus for that as a "fact" (which includes people who were "counted" as opposing a split)
  3. There was no consensus to only have one page in the first place, and I think it's safe to say there wouldn't have been if the film had been released at the same time everywhere, so there was no silent, or explicit, consensus supporting that
  4. The majority favored a split, when factoring in the history of the page as well as comments made

That said, I'm willing to continue the discussion about this, even if that results in the page being merged back, since more input on this subject is welcomed and required. - Archduk3 18:19, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Removed Edit

Removed this background note from the line stating that he was Pike's mentor (It is unknown whether this happened before or after the point of divergence of the alternate timeline.) as we don't know that it is true in the prime timeline at all. 31dot (talk) 19:56, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

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