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Memory Alpha:Pages for deletion/Bible (Omega IV)

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Revision as of 17:58, October 1, 2007 by Sulfur (Talk | contribs)

This is a page to discuss the suggestion to delete "Bible (Omega IV)".

  • If you are suggesting a page for deletion, add your initial rationale to the section "Deletion rationale".
  • If you want to discuss this suggestion, add comments to the section "Discussion".
  • If a consensus has been reached, an administrator will explain the final decision in the section "Admin resolution".

In all cases, please make sure to read and understand the deletion policy before editing this page.

Deletion rationale

I really don't see the evidence which supports this being a separate entity from the Holy Bible. When the book is picked up, the word "Holy" can clearly be seen on its cover, in an elaborate Gutenberg-esque font. Then, it is opened to Haggai 1, which is a part of not just the Hebrew Bible, but the Christian Old Testament as well. There's therefore no onscreen evidence to suggest that this isn't the Bible, as known on Earth. Given the survival of the US Constitution — on parchment, no less — surely the point of the episode is that Earth documents have survived intact. This article should be deleted. CzechOut | 23:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


Keep Vote 1

(Although I'm heavily, heavily biased having created the page): Maybe we can move it to Holy Bible (Omega IV) page (although Bible isn't there), but it definitely has some differences from the Earth Bible. Notably, the big honking image of a Vulcan-like Devil (I know it was a joke. And in TOS, everyone thought Vulcans looked like the Devil). There may be a double standard regarding the USes' Constitutions however, that should be addressed pending the resolution of this PfD.--Tim Thomason 00:38, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

There have been illustrated Bibles since its canonization. Illustrations are not consistent from one version to another, nor even one printing to another. The image of a devil here is appropriate enough to the text of Haggai, which twice admonishes readers to "give careful thought to your ways". However, I think the image actually is for the book which precedes Haggai, namely Zephaniah. (Haggai clearly starts in the middle of the page, meaning Zephaniah is above it.) Zephaniah is a particularly "fire and brimstone", apocalyptic prophecy which pre-figures Revelation.
The devil image is particularly appropriate to language like:
"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth"
"I will cut off from this place every remnant of Baal, the names of the pagan and the idolatrous priests . . . those who bow down and swear by the Lord and who also swear by Molech, those who turn back from following the Lord and neither seek the Lord nor inquire of him."
"I will bring distress. . . because they have sinned against the Lord. Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like filth"
To me, the devil image could have been illustrating the false gods mentioned in the text, or was simply a representation of the horror that was being promised. To my mind, it strengthens the case for this being the Holy Bible — and not just a bible — because it helps to establish that the books are in the same order of traditional Biblical canon. But, even if that's a stretch for ya, illustrations aren't canon in any Bible and have no impact on whether an edition you might be holding is the Bible. CzechOut | 01:00, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious that the image was added by the production team, to some sort of Paramount stage Bible they had (for use in Westerns and such, I'm sure), in order to support the ongoing Spock = Devil look-alike gag. It goes without saying that they didn't really care that we can read the Book of Haggai onscreen, and the stage bible was probably in order (with a fake page stuck in there of the Evil One). Dialogue in the episode cannot support or deny any minor differences that may occur between the cultures, with respect to their respective Bibles and other "holy words." The Evil One dialogue and image always led me to believe that there were differences (and the image is pretty much treated as accurate, and likely "canonical," by the Yang Scholar).

If we do have to delete this article, I'd rather it be *merged* (I'm still voting Keep) with Bible in a similar way to the United States Constitution (which I think could be separated) and not out-right deleted as is proposed.--Tim Thomason 01:54, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I do think the material should be incorporated into the Bible article. But the page itself should be deleted, as opposed to moved, because there's no reason to retain a redirect from Bible (Omega IV). CzechOut | 02:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Keep Vote 2

Whether this book was an exact duplicate of the earth text or not, it was written independently as a seperate work and should have its own entry. I also think that there should be a seperate article for each Constitution. -- Connor Cabal 02:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

What canon reference can be given to support the contention that "it was written independently as a separate work"? CzechOut | 01:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The United States Constitution article explains that that document precedes its Earth counterpart be hundreds of years. Omega IV had a significantly different history than Earth. There is no canon reference or implication I am aware of that points to either document having the same source. As for the Zephaniah citation, I don't see how it has directly anything to do with the Devil; it is just the Hebrew God condemning paganism and idolatry. On the contrary, I'd say that the inclusion of the Evil One near Haggai is strong evidence that this is not the same Bible as the one on Earth. -- Connor Cabal 03:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The United States Constitution article doesn't explain anything; it merely contends something in a background note. What are the chances that a society could independently evolve not just the same language (English), but also form a legal document that began with exactly the same preamble, and chose to write it in exactly the same font and on the same paper? Occam's Razor clearly applies here. The simplest explanation is the best, namely that we're looking at the actual US Constitution and the actual Bible, rather than believing that somehow the culture there pre-dates the existence of the Constitution. I mean, that's rather the point of the episode; how two cultures diverged from the same origin point. CzechOut | 19:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

The "simplest explanation" is to adhere to canon. Canon says that the Constitution was written thousands of years ago. The two cultures having the same origin does not mean that the origins occured at the same time. Two Bibles, two Constitutions. Written on different planets, thousands of years apart. That's Hodgkin's Law for you. -- Connor Cabal 23:13, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

But as the Hodgkin's Law article makes clear, canon doesn't say anything nearly so conclusive as you seem to be suggesting. There are a lot of unanswered questions about Omega IV. Canon doesn't outright say anything definite about the dates. But the odds against such a specific co-development of culture are so astronomical, it doesn't really make a lot of sense to believe they are different. But let's look at it from another poiint of view. Let's say there are two Constitutions. What we know of the Omegan one is that it has exactly the same preamble. And both cultures have Bibles which include the very minor book of Haggai. There is thus the heavy implication that the rest of the documents are identical. If they are identical, they hardly need two separate articles. CzechOut | 14:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

United States Constitution: "It must be stressed that alien influence on Omega IV is at no point implied within the episode itself". If there was no alien influence, there is no cross-polination, as it were, and thus the sources would be independent. Would you suggest merging Earth and Miri's homeworld, just because they had similar histories? I hope not. I don't see a difference with the Bibles or the Constitutions. -- Connor Cabal 15:23, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Saying that there's no alien influence leaves the door open to the interpretation that the residents of Omega IV are, in fact, humans themselves. While the episode is silent on their origin, the implication of the episode is that they, like the human guest players in ENT: "North Star" are displaced from Earth. Unlike "North Star", though, the episode gives us no real clues how they found themselves off Earth.
Omega IV is clearly not like Miri's homeworld at all because episode dialogue in "Miri" clearly establishes it as "another Earth". And Miri's homeworld doesn't suggest such close socio-political ties with Earth; the similarities are mostly about biology and geography. That's not the case for Omega IV.
There are indeed a lot of unanswered questions about Omega IV, because, frankly, the script is awfully vague. The central question of this debate is therefore who has the greater burden of proof: the person arguing that the items are distinct (when no dialogue proof exists to support the claim), or the person arguing that they are the same (when no dialogue proof exists to support that' claim, either)? I personally think that we then turn to the secondary proof of visual information, and when I look at an American flag, a copy of the Constitution, a book which matches the general stereotype of a Holy Bible, and a man reciting the Pledge of Allegiance — I'm gonna demand proof that my eyes aren't deceiving me. CzechOut | 17:28, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Admin resolution

  • No consensus reached either way, so kept for the time being. However, I did add a note to the article noting that the Bible may or may not be the same one as the Earth Bible as discussed above. The discussion above has really broken down to a "yes it is"/"no it isn't" with no real results anywhere in sight unfortunately. -- Sulfur 17:58, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
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