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Lyricists and composers - wanted or not?

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Hey, guys, I need your opinion on something.

I've been adding missing canon Star Trek-related names to the Star Trek deaths list. In this list, I have been including links to the lyricists and composers of the songs that have been used on Trek but were not written for Trek – mainly the songs sung by Vic Fontaine on DS9. But before someone (like me) starts creating those pages, I need to know – do you guys think it's a good or bad idea to have pages on those responsible for the songs, or should would just leave their names as background info on the song pages themselves?

For example, right now we have a pages on Comden and Green and Jule Styne, who wrote the song "Just in Time". Is this too much? I mean, these people did write the songs, after all, just like screenwriters wrote Star Trek stories and screenplays. But what do you guys think?

Song lyricist/composer pages – wanted or not wanted? Needed or not needed? You decide. --From Andoria with Love 04:42, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to a birthday party. I expect some replies when I come back. ;) --From Andoria with Love 16:34, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

My Opinion: Yes. I think they should be a part of memory alpha, because their work was part of Star Trek like you said above. – Tom 19:20, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think we should include them. In many cases. We could also create pages for Vermeer, as some of his paintings were seen or Gustav Eiffel as his creation was seen in several episodes as well. If the names weren't mentioned or seen in the episode or end credits, we shouldn't create pages for them. That's why we do have a page for Georges Bizet but not for Camille Saint-Saens. My two cents. --Jörg 19:53, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Is the apparent "convention" for painters accidental or deliberate? How are we treating literary authors? Janeway and the Doctor read (and named onscreen) Dante. Icheb quotes Sophocles. Chang quoted Shakespeare, without naming the author, though others did (eg., Picard). Mark Twain is paraphrased by Picard, Yates and the Doctor, though not named. Let's follow whatever convention is already in place thus. For the record, there doesn't seem to be one, in practice: Dante's works are linked, but not the author; Shakespeare has an article; Sophocles does not; Twain the author does not but the in-universe character does. While the practice may be spotty, if it's ever been argued and resolved in policy, why not stick to it. Conversely, if it really is a brandnew issue, let's use it for all RL works: Painting, literature, music, mime, fashion design, etc. I like the idea, Shran. I think it's worth deciding now how to be consistent. SwishyGarak 21:04, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Unless the article is tagged with a {{realworld}}, then no. Jimi Hendrix is _not_ real world, and should _not_ be included in a real world article, like Star Trek deaths. --Alan 00:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Hendrix and Jack Palance notwithstanding (whom I agree should be removed from the Star Trek deaths; don't know what I was thinking adding them in there :P), the thing is that the songs were used in Star Trek, and somebody wrote those songs. They simply did not receive credit, but if they had, we wouldn't be having this conversation because they would be practically the same as any other credited production crew member. By the way, speaking of the likes of Hendrix and Roy Orbison (and perhaps adding on to what SwishyGarak pointed out above, if I understand it correctly) – shouldn't they be real world articles, since they weren't actually mentioned on-screen? At least Palance was seen... I dunno. Anyway, I personally see no harm in including lyricists and composers as real world articles, but I'll understand if others have reservations about it. --From Andoria with Love 05:14, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

We had a similar discussion about including an article about C.S. Forester, as one of his novels (Commodore Hornblower), appeared in a couple of DS9 episodes. My rationale was, apart from the historic importance of Mr. Forester to space exploration, somebody had to have written the book. My argument, alas, failed to carry the day, but some interesting ideas about how to referrence the authors of works appearing in Star Trek were brought up and can be seen here. --GNDN 01:51, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Shran, the perspective that I don't think you are seeing is that these composers and lyricists were not involved as part of the production of Star Trek, like say, Jay Chattaway, or better example the song "Where My Heart Will Take Me"/Diane Warren/Russell Watson. These works you speak of were heard, sung or spoken by the characters or "real artists" in their own (or our Star Trek) universe, whereas Chattaway's or Warren/Watson's work was likewise not heard or interpreted by the characters, but rather part of the production's presentation, versus part of character interaction. By your suggested definition, Phineas Tarbolde would be "real world" as his works were spoken by characters in their own universe, but in terms of our reality, he never existed. --Alan 02:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Reply to GNDN: I remember that discussion. While they are similar, they're not exactly the same. Let's think of this credit wise. If the songs were used in, let's say, a DS9 film, the lyricists would have received credit (as would have James Darren as the performer). However, because they were TV shows (and due to time constraints and limitations of many TV credits), they did not receive credit. If a novel is referenced or seen in a film, however, the book and its author would not receive credit: Herman Melville didn't receive credit for use of Moby Dick in Star Trek: First Contact; Charles Dickens didn't receive credit for the use of A Tale of Two Cities in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. But Irving Berlin did receive credit for "Blue Skies" (Star Trek Nemesis); Dick Penner, Wade Moore and Roy Orbison received credit for "Ooby Dooby" (Star Trek: First Contact); Edge of Etiquette received credit for "I Hate You" (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home); Ludwig Van Beethoven and Jeno Jando received credit for "Sonata No.8 in C minor, Opus 13. "Pathetique" (Star Trek: Insurrection) and Alan Silvestri received credit for his "Makeover Mambo" (also Star Trek: Insurrection). Are you saying these people don't deserve their own real-world articles because C.S. Forester couldn't become an in-universe article? That doesn't seem right...
  • Reply to Alan: Er... huh? Sure, they weren't active in the productions (many were dead by the time their songs were used), but for those lyricists/whatever whose works were used but who were not named in canon, I don't see a big problem with having a real-world article for them. As for those who were mentioned or seen in canon (Jack Palance, for example), they can remain as an in-universe page, but have some minor biographical info in a background section, as was done with Palance.
  • Anyway, as I said, I started this forum for the community's opinion; if it's decided that such pages aren't wanted, that's perfectly fine with me, I just wanted to find out before I or someone else started creating the pages. If they're not wanted, though, we should probably get rid of the Comden and Green page. --From Andoria with Love 02:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
That was rank sarcasm about my failure to get Forester his own page, and should be treated as such :P. I think, though, that I see your point, Shran. Whether an artist or author receives on-screen credit is irrelevant; what matters is that the author must receive credit (and remuneration, if required) from the production. For example, Pato Guzman received no on-screen credit for the production design of "The Cage", but it is well-documented that he participated until he departed from Desilu to return to Cuba. (The Making of Star Trek). In that case, an "uncredited" artist (or perfomer, for that matter), would be a proper subject for a "real world" article.


This is how I would approach it: author's work appears in Star Trek and author's name is spoken or seen on-screen during the production, then the author gets an in-universe article, with appropriate background material. If the author/performer is mentioned in the credits only, then a "real life" article should be submitted. If the artist/performer is uncredited –but the authorship or performance can be reasonably verified— then a "real life" article is in order. --GNDN 17:56, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable, and it's kind of what I thinking (I think that's what I thinking... I'm frequently thinking-impaired these days). Let's see if the others approve of it. :) --From Andoria with Love 20:37, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

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