I noticed that the three seasons of Kirk's original five-year mission on the Enterprise are covered as five years in his character biography here rather than three. How were those three seasons used to cover five years up to the point of the show's cancellation? Globular Cluster
- Basically, each season overlaps two years. The first season covers years 1 to 2, the second season covers years 2 to 3, the third season covers years 3 to 4, and the Animated Series covers years 4 to 5. -Angry Future Romulan 18:28, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for the quick reply, but the figures you give don't appear to be substantively accounted for, but rather seem arbitrary, and if you review the character's biography at startrek.com, this period of his life is more vaguely covered. Also, I don't believe the Animated series is generally considered to be canon, nor by the studio. Globular Cluster
- Well, MA does consider the Animated Series canon (although I personally don't). As far as the years, it's basically the same as any other TV show. Since a regular TV season runs from Fall to the following Spring, a single season overlaps two years. As you can see, the second year of Kirk's mission is covered both in Season 1 and Season 2, due to this overlap. Admittedly, you're right, it is a bit arbitrary, since specific years were never actually given in TOS, but it's the best we have. -Angry Future Romulan 18:41, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
It's true that the seasons overlap from one year to the next; however, a full season, even back then, spans less than a year, and if the show hadn't been canceled prematurely then each season would have been viewed as covering one full year. I don’t consider the Animated series to be canon either by the way, but the reason this comes up is because of the problem TMP poses, with only about three years of time being accounted for in the film's dialogue even though a full decade had passed in the real world, and the extent to which the actors had aged over that decade was quite obvious. If there were still two years left on Kirk's original five-year mission however, then combined with the dialogue in TMP we'd be looking at the passage of about five years rather than three, which makes the actors having noticeably aged in the film more acceptable. And whether you consider the Animated series to be canon or not, it's a bit immaterial on that point --one can include them or not, it makes little to no difference either way. Globular Cluster 18:57, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
- What does any of this have to do with James T. Kirk and changing just this article? TAS is canon, and TMP is after the five year mission; the only point of contention is if there is another five year mission between the two, not if each episode in TOS was spaced one week apart in universe, which we know isn't true. - Archduk3 19:16, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
I just gave you the answer to your initial question in my last response, except that it affects not James T. Kirk but rather all of the characters in general. Also, obviously each episode does not necessarily cover "a week", which I never said here. But five seasons would have been viewed as five years if the series had actually lasted that long regardless of how much time had passed from episode-to-episode. And whether you think this article should be changed or not can be chalked up to your own personal point of view on the matter. I'm just giving you my reasons as to why I think it should be adjusted, and as I said, the biography Page for the character at startrek.com is vaguer when it comes to this period of his life. But I do think that if you're going to break his history and the history of the crew down so that three seasons covers five years, you should have something more concrete to go on in asserting that as being the case. Globular Cluster 19:29, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
- Retain your indent, see Help:Talk pages. Also, again, TAS is canon here, so it's 4.25 seasons for five years, not three, and in case it was somehow unclear before, any changes to dates wouldn't effect just this article, so this isn't the correct place to discussing this. You can try the timeline project or the year you have a problem with in the timeline. Any of those places should also provide the "something more concrete" you're looking for, provided you can leave your personal point of view out of it. - Archduk3 20:38, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
The difference between my own personal point of view and yours, aside from what is evident and what my eyes tell me is that contrary to you I haven't codified it. You on the other hand have codified yours, or have seen it codified, and this really didn’t need to be a contentious exchange except for the fact that apparently you wanted it to be. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised though, since this is usually what happens when one dares to challenge orthodoxy, at least as it pertains to this particular web site. Oh, and as for the canon status of the Animated series –that is something that has been debated for decades, with more often in the past the prevailing view having been that it was not canon –a view expressed and held by none other than Gene Roddenberry. It wasn’t until the studio finally released that series on DVD that they finally decided to change their tune on the matter. And it really shouldn’t have mattered much where I brought this issue up either by the way, since as you say, if the history were to be revised it would be a sweeping change affecting more than just James T. Kirk. However, his biography here is what made it an issue and is why I saw fit to bring it up here rather than somewhere else. Globular Cluster 23:07, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
- I have moved the page here, since it concerns more than one page. Let's try to focus on the substance of the discussion and not a back-and-forth. 31dot 00:22, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
For what it's worth I'd take issue with the startrek.com timeline too. It states under Kirk's character biography (http://www.startrek.com/database_article/james-t-kirk) that the five-year mission of the Enterprise ends in 2269, but then goes on to also state that the V'Ger incident occurs in 2271, just two years later when even the dialogue in TMP doesn't support that chronology, not to mention that the characters/actors had noticeably aged a decade from where the television series had previously left off. Globular Cluster 03:38, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
- On a canon point of view, VOY: "Q2" indicates "Finally, in the year 2270, Kirk completed his historic five-year mission". For TMP, discussions were made to know if it occured in 2272, 2273 or even later : {From year notes} "There is some controversy over the dating of Star Trek: The Motion Picture. The earliest the film could take place is late 2272 (based on information from VOY: "Q2", which stated that Kirk's first five-year mission ended in 2270, and information within the film that Kirk had not "logged a single star hour in two-and-a-half years." The latest the film could take place is 2277, since the Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan style uniforms are in use by 2278. (TNG: "Cause and Effect"). Pocket Books officially places the film in 2273."
- For your questions about the years of the five year mission, Canon policy states : "Also, dates for certain events in the Trek universe (such as 2285 for Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan) that were derived from official reference materials may be used, but these are not strictly canon. This is to prevent labeling a number of episodes or movies as being set in the 2260s, 2360s, etc. A background note explaining where the source was derived from should be provided and, as with the naming rule above, are to be ignored should they be contradicted on screen." If I'm correct, episode years are derived from "Star Trek Chronology" and other reference books, which also gives the year 2271 (obviously wrong).
- For your concerns about TAS, there are different variants of the canon [1]. Memory Alpha has always considered TAS as part of the Canon, even before Paramount's change of mind. - From Cardassia with pain 00:54, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for your informative reply, but unfortunately we are left with some apparent ambiguity about specific dates concerning the career of James T. Kirk and the five-year mission of the Enterprise, and thereafter, once he had been assigned to captain the vessel.
And from a personal standpoint, I wince whenever I see "Voyager" or "Enterprise" being used as a means of codifying the history of the Star Trek universe. In the case of "Voyager" it is because the show was so often so bad, and with respect to "Enterprise" as a prequel, it's due to the fact that it botched so much of previously established continuity set down in the original series. I have also never viewed TAS as canon, unless one cares to refer to them as a summary source of other missions, wherein there are certain gaps as to just what occurred in those incidents. In that sense I wouldn't have a problem with it, but regardless of what D.C. Fontana, David Gerrold, and others associated with the production of that animated series have argued in its defense, the quality simply can't be considered as being in any way on par with the live action television show, or the movies that followed later.
But in any case, as to exactly what year the V'Ger incident occurred has not been dated correctly in several different places, which is something of a problem obviously. Things like this shouldn't be so difficult to nail down except for the fact that no one in a position of authority has sat down and bothered to do it based on available information.
I would also point out that there is a notable gap in time from where TMP leaves off and TWoK picks up, for whatever it's worth. It's true that the actors hadn't really changed all that significantly in the aftermath of the first film to where the sequel then picked up, but we get the sense that more time than just a year had passed from one film to the other. Some have even questioned whether a second five-year mission for the Enterprise with Kirk and the original crew had actually taken place during that interval.
Ultimately what we're left here with concerning the exact year of the V'Ger incident is our own best guess in a sense based on fragmentary available data, which is a bit annoying. Globular Cluster 05:31, April 19, 2012 (UTC)